07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillIt was with His glorified human body of flesh and bone (minus blood)
It is wonderful that you should repeat a few times this passage which I love. Do so as many times as you like.
Is there something of a point about it that relates here ?
Did I not address something you asked pertaining to Christ's ascension to His Father ?
Notice that though Christ ascends to the Father we cannot really say that He was ever withou ...[text shortened]... back to the Father.
But on the other hand, the Father who sent the Son never left the Son.
that He ascended back to the Father. He did not have this body before
when He came down from heaven.
Do you agree with the above?
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHinds
It was with His glorified human body of flesh and bone (minus blood)
that He ascended back to the Father. He did not have this body before
when He came down from heaven.
Do you agree with the above?
It was with His glorified human body of flesh and bone (minus blood)
that He ascended back to the Father. He did not have this body before
when He came down from heaven.
Do you agree with the above?
I believe that in His resurrection, He completed what was only PREVIEWED in His transfiguration. His body was brought into resurrection glory.
In a sense His transfiguration on the mountain was a small preview of His resurrection. And in resurrection He was born the Firstborn Son of God. The resurrection of Christ was also His second Birth as the First to be born among many brothers to FOLLOW.
Now I agree with you. The only matter that over the years I seemed never to feel I HAD to make a decision about was His blood. Ie. is the glorified Lord today with or without blood ?
I simply have no strong opinion about that at this time. For years I have noticed that a few teachers make an issue about the Lord Jesus being ascended without blood.
I don't know. I just have not yet formed an opinion concerning that.
Praise our victorious and risen Lord Jesus !
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07 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsI will restate the question.
It depends on if he wished to hear more.
Suppose you come across an accident victim who is in mortal danger and may go unconscious and die at any moment. You are the only help around. He is bleeding and you can't stop it. He asks if you are Christian, and then he says he has rejected religion and the idea of God all his life. But he now has doubts and feels that he is in his last moments. He asks you to tell him whatever is most important for him to hear right now.
You want to help him. You don't know how much time you have.
What would you say? What would you leave out, at least at first? This is for anyone who would like to reply. I would prefer that people not start new arguments out of this.
Bullet points will do. No need to state the exact wording you would use.
So to recap: He asks you to tell him whatever is most important for him to hear right now.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by JS357Okay, I would tell him that the most important thing he should do
I will restate the question.
Suppose you come across an accident victim who is in mortal danger and may go unconscious and die at any moment. You are the only help around. He is bleeding and you can't stop it. He asks if you are Christian, and then he says he has rejected religion and the idea of God all his life. But he now has doubts and feels that he is ...[text shortened]...
So to recap: He asks you to tell him whatever is most important for him to hear right now.
is confess his sins and confess Jesus the Christ is his Lord and
Savior before men and believe and trust that the Lord will forgive
him of his sins and save him from the second death.
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07 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsThanks. I think this concludes my questions on what is essential. It depends on the situation and how well the situation is perceived by the Christian.
Okay, I would tell him that the most important thing he should do
is confess his sins and confess Jesus the Christ is his Lord and
Savior before men and believe and trust that the Lord will forgive
him of his sins and save him from the second death.
Edit: Thanks to the 2 that responded.
07 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
your belief in the trinity is testament to your belief that christ is the equal of the father.
[quote] Then again the [b]son ... given is to be called Eternal Father in Isaiah's prophecy. The entermingling, co-mingling, and co-inherance of the Father and the Son reinforces that in Christ God became man.
Thank God those of us with not mentioned even a single time reigns in the realm of absurdity.[/b]
jaywill:
This is the indwelling Triune God. And this letter of Paul exactly corresponds to Christ's promise -
"Jesus answered and said to him, if anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
VoidSpirit:
there is no triune god idea in that verse. that verse is in accordance with the NT narrative where jesus is appointed by god to have supreme authority (temporarily) and shares the same goals as god.
reading further, i see no verses you have quoted that support the trinity. i don't have the time or energy to break it apart verse by verse. all you have done is reaffirm the standard NT narrative;
-jesus is son of god and a separate being from the father.
-god planned on jesus from the very beginning.
-jesus and god share the same goals, they are of the same mind.
-jesus is appointed with divine power and divine authority until he successfully completes his mission.
-his mission is to defeat all his enemies and his final enemy is death.
-once his mission is over all divine authority will be returned to god.
-jesus is subservient to god
-due to his divine powers, jesus is godlike (like moses was).
that is nothing at all about a trinity in the NT narrative. to think that such an important concept is not mentioned even a single time reigns in the realm of absurdity.
there is no triune god idea in that verse. that verse is in accordance with the NT narrative where jesus is appointed by god to have supreme authority (temporarily) and shares the same goals as god.
There is nothing "temporary" at all about the resurrection, ascension, and enthronement of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Secondly, if it should be adaquate that God the Father alone make an abode in the lovers of Christ, WHY THEN does Jesus teach that HE AND the Father will come to make an abode in them ?
" ... and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him." (See john 13:23)
If the Father is the supreme authority why should it be necessary that the SON also come with the Father, as the Divine "WE" to abide in the believers ?
reading further, i see no verses you have quoted that support the trinity. i don't have the time or energy to break it apart verse by verse. all you have done is reaffirm the standard NT narrative;
You lack then the enthusiasm and probably the skill to do so.
If the Father is the supreme authority Jesus teaches that it is important that we believe not only in God but in Jesus - " ... believe into God, believe also into Me." (14:1)
Since John told in the prologue that this "ME" of Jesus was the Logos that was with God and WAS GOD, and became flesh, both John's prologue and Jesus's words indicate the importance of believing into God and into Himself.
Your case crumbles.
No man comes to the Father except through the "ME" of the Son. So the Son is ALSO a supreme authority.
He who has the Son has the Father also. And he who does not have the Son does not have the Father:
"Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)
The Apostle's exhortation is that the believers abide in the Son and in the Father -
"as for you, that which you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If that which you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father" (1 John 2:24)
For the Divine "WE" of the Father and Son to make an abode in the lovers of Christ leads to the experience of them abiding "in the Son and in the Father".
And you think "Trinity" is just something some bored theologians dreamed up one afternoon to entertain themselves and perplex confused generations of people after them ?
Come now. They struggled with the limitation of human language to frame the plain words of Jesus Christ and the rest of the New Testament.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I admit that some wasted debate has insued in Church history over the Trinity. The answer is to EXPERIENCE and ENJOY the Father - Son - Holy Spirit. It is not to oppose some of the statements of this paradox which are clearly there in Scripture.
-jesus is son of god and a separate being from the father.
Not really.
God was in Christ reconciing the world to Himself. Even in the darkest hour as He bore the sins of the world and cried out "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?" in the agony of being judged for our sins, even THEN - "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself".
Where can you point to any absolute separation between the Father and the Son ? It is not there in the Bible.
-god planned on jesus from the very beginning.
I agree with that. And it is a welcomed confession from one who had such insulting words for God in other threads.
-jesus and god share the same goals, they are of the same mind.
"The WORD WAS GOD" is even closer than that.
-jesus is appointed with divine power and divine authority until he successfully completes his mission.
His "mission" extends unto ETERNITY.
"For in this way the entrance into the ETERNAL KINGDOM of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ..." (2 Peter 1:11)
Did you notice that ViodSpirit ? " ... THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST ..."
No wonder the prophet said "But as to the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Heb 1:8)
What is this about a "temporary" mission of the Son of God ???
-his mission is to defeat all his enemies and his final enemy is death.
So true. But First Corinthians 15 never says that Christ will not reign unto eternity.
The "eternal purpose" is made by God in Christ Jesus, not the temporary purpose -
"According to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph. 3:11)
Your "temporary mission" of the Son of God is an illusion, even a deception. You better drop such a wrong headed idea.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, [yes], even forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
-once his mission is over all divine authority will be returned to god.
At WHAT TIME did Jesus Christ NOT hold that the divine authority as not God's ?
Yes, First Corinthians 15:27 does say this -
"For He has subjected all things under His feet. But when He saus that all things are subjectedd, it is evident that [all things are] except Him who has subjected all things to Him.
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."
So the Father subects all things to be under the feet of the Son. And after some finite period of time this subjection of all things is complete and the Son Himself is subjected to Him who subjected all things under the Son.
What you fail to realize is that it is the good pleasure of the Father that the Son reign FOREVER. Contrary to the Universalist or the Jehovah's Witness First Corinthians 15:24-28 speaks of God FIRING or DISMISSING the Son.
Though it says " ... then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him ..." at what time was the Son NOT subjected to Him ? He NEVER WAS NOT IN SUBJECTION from the incarnation particularly.
In the passages revealing the Triune God operating as the Divine "US" it is not easy to discern who is in subjection to who. The Divine US simply operates in complete harmony:
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Genesis 1:26)
"And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ..." (Gen. 3:22a)
"And Jehovah God said ... Come let Us go down and there confound their language ... " (Gen 11:6a,7a)
"Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send? Who will go for Us ? (Isaiah 6:8)
In these four verses we simply see the Triune God operating. It is not that clear that there is an authority and a submission to authority. The Divine "US" simply moves.
This is similar to the Divine "WE" of the Father and the Son coming to make an abode in the lover of Jesus in John 14:23.
Anyway, that the mission of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Logos become flesh Who is with God and was God, being "temporary" in any way, is your illusion.
You cannot run to First Corinthians 15 in hope that Christ will be FIRED or dismissed or superceded or discarded.
In the picture of the final New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 you have God as the light shining our of the Lamb as the lamp. There is ONE throne - "the throne of God and the Lamb". And the Holy Spirit is pouring out of the throne as the river of water of life to impart divine life into the entire symbolic city for eternity.
The final scene is of the Triune God dispensing Himself into His people through the Redeeming Lamb from His eternal throne of administration.
-jesus is subservient to god
" ... that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father"
You dream of not having to do so I suppose.
-due to his divine powers, jesus is godlike (like moses was).
Jesus is much more than a matter of godlike powers.
Fallen man, the Apostle Paul said, is "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
If you notice nothing in John's Gos.....
07 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillYou know Jaywill that all these scriptures you post do not in anyway show the trinity. In fact they do just the opposite.
[quote]
jaywill:
This is the indwelling Triune God. And this letter of Paul exactly corresponds to Christ's promise -
[b]"Jesus answered and said to him, if anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
VoidSpirit:
there is no triune god idea in th John's Gos...[/b]
07 Jan 12
Cont.
If you notice nothing in John's Gospel, you should notice that Jesus said that He was the LIFE.
So if Jesus is the LIFE OF GOD then how can you hope to teach a separation between Jesus and God ? Is the LIFE of God not God ?
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12)
In Him was life. Not only godlike powers. In Him was the divine ZOE life from which fallen man was estranged and alienated -
" ... you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walked in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, ALIENATED FROM THE LIFE OF GOD because of the hignorance which is in them ..." (See Eph. 4:17,18)
Christ is this Life of God - " In Him was Life ".
"I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25)
"I am the way and the reality and the life ..." (John 14:6)
' ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
The "life of God" must be God. And Christ is that LIFE which was with the Father and was manifested to us (1 John 1:2) .
Show me the passage saying that Moses is the life of God.
You have seen that fallen man was alienated from the life of God. And Christ the life giving Spirit enters into the believers to give them Himself as eternal life.
07 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75I think you are a good heretical backround in order to show the truth of the Triune God in Scripture. Maybe God is using you like he used Pharoah.
You know Jaywill that all these scriptures you post do not in anyway show the trinity. In fact they do just the opposite.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillOh so a heretic is one who does not accept the trinity? Hummmmm? I would think one who accepts the trinity are the heretics as it's not a bible based belief. Not 1 scripture in the Bible teaches that and all of history proves where the trinity came from.
I think you are a good heretical backround in order to show the truth of the Triune God in Scripture. Maybe God is using you like he used Pharoah.
So who's the heretics here?
Remember the scripture that says: "The whole world is lying in the power of the evil one"?
Remember he scripture that says: "Narrow is the gate leading to life and FEW are the ones finding it but broad and spacious is the road leading to death and MANY are the ones finding it"?
So just because the largest religion in the world teaches this trinity, that makes it right and ones who don't are wrong? Size means nothing with God.
Those scriptures as well as others that confirm this truth are there for a reason...............
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillVoidSpirit would make a better Jehovah's Witness than a Christian, IMO.
[quote]
jaywill:
This is the indwelling Triune God. And this letter of Paul exactly corresponds to Christ's promise -
[b]"Jesus answered and said to him, if anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
VoidSpirit:
there is no triune god idea in th ...[text shortened]... hn's Gos.....[/b]
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsWell, I think he has made some progress from the blaphemous names he hurled at God in another thread. God was a tyrant, despot, bully.
VoidSpirit would make a better Jehovah's Witness than a Christian, IMO.
Now at least he speaks about the fact that God DOES indeed have some enemies which need to be put in subjection.
Would you say that he recognizes that fact shows a little progress ?
At least God is not a terrible monster to him for wanting to subdue some enemies. Maybe in time we can revisit the Amalekites, the Midianites, and the Philistines with a bit more empathy for the divine viewpoint.