16 Jun 15
Considering that we know that the Bible was 'put together' by so called leaders from various writings that they deemed worthy enough to be in the Bible......can our current Bible be trusted to be 'Holy'? It seems logical that 100's or 1000's of 'books' did not make it into the Bible based on the decisions of humans. Are we truly getting the whole picture of what our 'God' is?
God destroyed Sodom......evil.
God caused the flood of Noah....evil.
Lot offered his daughters to be raped....evil.
God hardened the heart of Pharoah 10 times to make certain that the plagues took place, including plague 10 which killed the firstborn child...evil.
Jewish religion celebrates Passover (plague 10) as a 'holiday'....evil.
God creates an 'eternal hell' to unbelievers....evil.
Footnote to Christians: If Jesus is really God, then Jesus had a very big part to play in all of this evil. Why Jesus gets a 'clean slate' in the New Testament is difficult to comprehend........He did the evil too.
Is it possible that there is a Creator, and we truly have no idea who he/she is? Can the Bible be trusted for anything? I maintain that if a Creator wanted us to know Him, then the Bible would be clear to all. We should not have Christians doing battle with Catholics and Jehovah Witness over doctrine, certainly our Creator would make it simple for everyone to comprehend.
Maybe the Bible itself has caused atheism?
Any thoughts?
Originally posted by chaney3What is your understanding of the term Holy? that might be a good place to begin and the idea that thousands of books never made it is highly unlikely. The Jews and particularly the Massorettes were entrusted with keeping the sacred text secure which they did faithfully for hundreds of years. How was a writer supposed to get his book included along with the others? He would first of all need to be Jewish (that excluded about 95 percent of the population). He would then need to be considered inspired, that excludes a further four percent, leaving about a one in 10,000,000 million chance of being published in the Bible along with the other inspired books.
Considering that we know that the Bible was 'put together' by so called leaders from various writings that they deemed worthy enough to be in the Bible......can our current Bible be trusted to be 'Holy'? It seems logical that 100's or 1000's of 'books' did not make it into the Bible based on the decisions of humans. Are we truly getting the whole picture o ...[text shortened]... imple for everyone to comprehend.
Maybe the Bible itself has caused atheism?
Any thoughts?
16 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, I have been following your dispute with Hinds about whether or not Jesus is the Son of God.....or God Himself, or whether they are equal or not. I cannot imagine that if God/Jesus wanted us to know Him, that it would be such a difficult matter to understand.
What is your understanding of the term Holy? that might be a good place to begin and the idea that thousands of books never made it is highly unlikely. The Jews and particularly the Massorettes were entrusted with keeping the sacred text secure which they did faithfully for hundreds of years. How was a writer supposed to get his book included along ...[text shortened]... n 10,000,000 million chance of being published in the Bible along with the other inspired books.
A 'Holy' Bible, in my opinion, would not make this matter so impossible to understand.
And the other thread, Spectators in Hell brings up the impossible understanding if a Holy God would really set up an eternal Hell for un-believers as stated in Revelation. I wonder sometimes if we (humans) are equipped at all to understand a Creator, and if the writings in the Bible are even true at all.
16 Jun 15
Originally posted by chaney3yes but what is your understanding of the term Holy?
Robbie, I have been following your dispute with Hinds about whether or not Jesus is the Son of God.....or God Himself, or whether they are equal or not. I cannot imagine that if God/Jesus wanted us to know Him, that it would be such a difficult matter to understand.
A 'Holy' Bible, in my opinion, would not make this matter so impossible to understand.
...[text shortened]... equipped at all to understand a Creator, and if the writings in the Bible are even true at all.
16 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOkay.....the term 'Holy', it means to ME that God Himself spoke His words to a human who wrote these Holy words down on paper.....or on rocks, or whatever. I question the validity of these 'Holy' writings.
yes but what is your understanding of the term Holy?
An example is Mark 3:6......Jesus healed a man of a deformed hand in front of many witnesses, in a church, on the sabbath.....and the Pharisees who witnessed this did not exclaim joy and wonder at the healing.....their first thoughts were to go outside and figure out how to kill Jesus. It doesn't make sense, and doesn't add up. One can only go so far to blame ignorance to the Pharisees, and realize that a narrative has been set up.......even a Pharisee would be a complete moron to not recognize a miracle. And I reject the notion that they were so consumed with their money or prestige that they would ignore such a miracle.
Holy......should be recognizable to everyone....with no doubt whatsoever. There should be NO debate about the deity of Jesus Christ. The fact that this exists today, is Jesus God or not.....fully explains my point. If Jesus is God, then the entire world should know it.
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Originally posted by chaney3What you are implicitly doing is an argument from nonbelief.
Okay.....the term 'Holy', it means to ME that God Himself spoke His words to a human who wrote these Holy words down on paper.....or on rocks, or whatever. I question the validity of these 'Holy' writings.
An example is Mark 3:6......Jesus healed a man of a deformed hand in front of many witnesses, in a church, on the sabbath.....and the Pharisees who ...[text shortened]... God or not.....fully explains my point. If Jesus is God, then the entire world should know it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief
"There are two key varieties of the argument. The argument from reasonable nonbelief (or the argument from divine hiddenness) was first elaborated in J. L. Schellenberg's 1993 book Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason. This argument says that if God existed (and was perfectly good and loving) every reasonable person would have been brought to belief in God; however, there are reasonable nonbelievers; therefore, this God does not exist.
Theodore Drange subsequently developed the argument from nonbelief, based on the mere existence of nonbelief in God. Drange considers the distinction between reasonable (by which Schellenberg means inculpable) and unreasonable (culpable) nonbelief to be irrelevant and confusing. Nevertheless, most academic discussion is concerned with Schellenberg's formulation."
...
"Daniel Howard-Snyder and Paul Moser, in the introduction to a volume of papers on the idea of divine hiddenness as evidence against theism, cite Nietzsche's question as anticipating this contemporary theme: "a god who is all-knowing and all-powerful and who does not even make sure his creatures understand his intentions — could that be a god of goodness?""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief
16 Jun 15
Originally posted by JS357What I am trying to imply is that I believe in a Creator....and that maybe it's possible that we have no true idea who this Creator is because we were given the 'Holy Bible' to explain our Creator....and gave Him a name....God. The Bible has tried to remove this wonder by exclaiming that our Creator is....God. I am speculating that all of this could be completely wrong.....that our notion of God is warped, through the writings of a 'Holy Bible'. It should seem obvious to atheists that most of what God does in the Old Testament is evil, which is why most Christians will not make an effort to 'defend' God, except the notion that all will be revealed when we get to Heaven. Except, that it is unclear who makes it to this Heaven to receive this knowledge.
What you are implicitly doing is an argument from nonbelief.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief
"There are two key varieties of the argument. The argument from reasonable nonbelief (or the argument from divine hiddenness) was first elaborated in J. L. Schellenberg's 1993 book Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason. This argument says that ...[text shortened]... ns — could that be a god of goodness?""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief
What Adolph Hitler did was evil. God created evil. How can a reasonable person defend God........he cannot. It was once said that either God knew of the Holocaust and did nothing, which makes Him evil......or, God was unaware of the Holocaust.....which doesn't make Him much of a God at all.
16 Jun 15
I really want to hear from everyone on this forum regarding this topic. Everything we have been taught has come from the Bible. Can we truly trust the Bible on all issues?
To make my point.....Dive....I hope you don't mind me bringing this up.....but, as a Christian......you claimed that you were ready to discard the New Testament. That is a huge leap. Can we really trust the Holy Bible....that is my point.
16 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipWhen we think of ancient Egyptians worshiping the god Rah....we laugh. Mankind has always wondered who created all of this. Our current opinion is that all is explained in our 'Holy Bible', and it is my belief that we may be all wrong. That we were given 'texts' by ancestors to make an effort to explain. It is certainly plausible that human beings put together a 'book' based on ancient writings, and these 'experts' called this book Holy. I am not convinced. It should be conceivable to anyone reading this that a 'real God' is not something that we humans could even comprehend, let alone define.
My thoughts are that it seems your true colors seem to be showing more.
Is it me or are you now thinking and writing more like a vintage anti-theist ?
If so.....then explain how God is evil. I gave numerous examples in my opening. It is not good enough anymore to make a feeble, human effort to defend God. In my examples, God is evil.
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Originally posted by chaney3You want everyone to participate. With all due respect:
When we think of ancient Egyptians worshiping the god Rah....we laugh. Mankind has always wondered who created all of this. Our current opinion is that all is explained in our 'Holy Bible', and it is my belief that we may be all wrong. That we were given 'texts' by ancestors to make an effort to explain. It is certainly plausible that human beings put to ...[text shortened]... good enough anymore to make a feeble, human effort to defend God. In my examples, God is evil.
Like the people whose beliefs you question, use language to designate what you believe. Take your choice of the word "Creator". Please explain why you believe a somewhat reverential and exalting convention like using capital "C" is appropriate, and why the suffix -or is appropriate, which usually designates an activity conducted by a person (like "doctor", "realtor" ) instead of a non-purposeful, unconscious process. Also you seem to treat this "minimal" entity's existence and the act of creation as philosophically trouble-free. It seems like you are willing to assert comprehension of, and define, in two regards, this entity, whilst criticizing others who define it in other ways.
Some here doubt your sincerity. I don't, but I question your consistency in not applying to yourself the same critical analysis you apply to the beliefs of others. Please straighten out this issue of "Creator."
17 Jun 15
Originally posted by JS357The title of this thread is whether one believes the Holy Bible is in fact 'Holy'. It seems to me that scripture has always been disputed, and continues to this day. There seems nothing Holy about it.
You want everyone to participate. With all due respect:
Like the people whose beliefs you question, use language to designate what you believe. Take your choice of the word "Creator". Please explain why you believe a somewhat reverential and exalting convention like using capital "C" is appropriate, and why the suffix -or is appropriate, which usually desig ...[text shortened]... ical analysis you apply to the beliefs of others. Please straighten out this issue of "Creator."
17 Jun 15
Originally posted by chaney3You're looking at the Bible the wrong way you're looking at it as a moralistic view!
Considering that we know that the Bible was 'put together' by so called leaders from various writings that they deemed worthy enough to be in the Bible......can our current Bible be trusted to be 'Holy'? It seems logical that 100's or 1000's of 'books' did not make it into the Bible based on the decisions of humans. Are we truly getting the whole picture o ...[text shortened]... imple for everyone to comprehend.
Maybe the Bible itself has caused atheism?
Any thoughts?
17 Jun 15
Originally posted by RBHILLI strongly disagree. Jesus preached many good things, but it's not so simple. Who really knows who Jesus is? Catholics have the 'true' answer, yet the Jehovah Witness has the 'true' answer, yet the Orthodox Christian has the 'true' answer. Yet, the Baptist Christian has the 'true' answer. If I am making a statement, it is that nobody truly knows what is going on in the Spiritual Realm.
You're looking at the Bible the wrong way you're looking at it as a moralistic view!