13 Jul 08
Originally posted by Rajk99916 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
You have a Bible reference for this?
1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
13 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
You have a Bible reference for this?
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by josephwI think the word Im looking for is ... Deceitful. There must be some special punishment for people like you who make a determined effort to deceive others.
Originally posted by Rajk999
You have a Bible reference for this?
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: [b]God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;[/b]
1. You conveniently left out the Book and Chapter because verse 16 is the end of 1 Tim 3. So the 2 passages are not linked.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Can you read for yourself what Paul is calling the doctrines of devils?
2. A few verses earlier in 1 Tim 2:5, the same Paul says For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Notice - One God, One Mediator , the Man Christ Jesus.
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by JigtieNope, that's God's job. All I can do is share the word of God with you. And, really, what would be the point of sharing the word of God with you, if for you it is already a foregone conclusion that the word of God is implausible and nonsensical? I can't do your seeking for you, and only God has the power to demonstrate his faithfulness.
And there I was, thinking it's a Christian duty to convert people. 😛
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasIf it is God's duty to convert people can atheists be considered God's failures?
Nope, that's God's job. All I can do is share the word of God with you. And, really, what would be the point of sharing the word of God with you, if for you it is already a foregone conclusion that the word of God is implausible and nonsensical? I can't do your seeking for you, and only God has the power to demonstrate his faithfulness.
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasApparently, he can't. He can confuse me. He can certainly do that.
...and only God has the power to demonstrate his faithfulness.
But I fail to see his power, and I stand by my original claim. It would
have been far more effective to just pop up out of nowhere, show me
some magic and then speak. I could believe in that.
Leaving his Godly powers behind to be humble with the common man
sounds like the kind of thing I'd make up if I wanted people to follow
me: "Me and God, we're like this, see. But he can't help me out
here because, you know, I gotta be one of you guys. What's that? Show
you some magic? No, I can't do that unless God bestows on me a
miracle, and if he doesn't, who's to question his decision, eh? He is
the creator after all. The alpha and Omega, and what not. But him and
me? We're like this. We're one and the same almost."
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperHow should I know? All I know is, if somebody already believes that the Bible is a fairy tale simply because the contents seem implausible or nonsensical, there's really no use in sharing it with them.
If it is God's duty to convert people can atheists be considered God's failures?
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasFair enough.
How should I know? All I know is, if somebody already believes that the Bible is a fairy tale simply because the contents seem implausible or nonsensical, there's really no use in sharing it with them.
I'll back off now and let you guys quibble on about trinity and what not. 😛
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by JigtieHe can confuse me. He can certainly do that.
Apparently, he can't. He can confuse me. He can certainly do that.
But I fail to see his power, and I stand by my original claim. It would
have been far more effective to just pop up out of nowhere, show me
some magic and then speak. I could believe in that.
Leaving his Godly powers behind to be humble with the common man
sounds like ...[text shortened]... what not. But him and
me? We're like this. We're one and the same almost."
It's not hard to understand God's plan. Even my four-year-old daughter gets it. God provides.
But I fail to see his power, and I stand by my original claim.
The reason you fail to see his power is because you don't believe what Christ is telling you, that God's kingdom is available to you through him right here and now. If you did believe, perhaps you'd get a little radical and start asking God for things, expecting him to answer you simply because he promised he would in Christ.
Or...
You could just go on mocking the word of God and have a good laugh.
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasHuh? What the hell man? We're talking about the potential infinite suffering of my soul here and all you seem to be offering me is a vague notion that in order to gain some insight into how to save my soul I have to approach the Bible from the outset, as if it is true? In order to understand the Bible I must first believe it?
How should I know? All I know is, if somebody already believes that the Bible is a fairy tale simply because the contents seem implausible or nonsensical, there's really no use in sharing it with them.
Can you tell me why I would do that? Do you approach any other text with the same lack of critical thinking? What caused you to want to believe what is in the Bible, and why didn't I get the same gene?
14 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by TheSkipperWe're talking about the potential infinite suffering of my soul here and all you seem to be offering me is a vague notion that in order to gain some insight into how to save my soul I have to approach the Bible from the outset, as if it is true?
Huh? What the hell man? We're talking about the potential infinite suffering of my soul here and all you seem to be offering me is a vague notion that in order to gain some insight into how to save my soul I have to approach the Bible from the outset, as if it is true? In order to understand the Bible I must first believe it?
Can you tell me why I wou ...[text shortened]... ? What caused you to want to believe what is in the Bible, and why didn't I get the same gene?
It's not a vague notion, that's exactly what I'm saying.
In order to understand the Bible I must first believe it?
No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
Can you tell me why I would do that?
In order to find the truth perhaps?
Do you approach any other text with the same lack of critical thinking?
If another text offered what the Bible offers, I'd test it out, yeah.
What caused you to want to believe what is in the Bible, and why didn't I get the same gene?
I've always wanted to know for myself what's what, and made the decision to set aside my prejudices (and they were many) against Christianity, and dove headlong into the faith. I was drawn to Jesus, the guy at the center of it all. If he truly was available to me, I wanted to meet him.
That's about it.
Originally posted by epiphinehas{quote}
[b]We're talking about the potential infinite suffering of my soul here and all you seem to be offering me is a vague notion that in order to gain some insight into how to save my soul I have to approach the Bible from the outset, as if it is true?
It's not a vague notion, that's exactly what I'm saying.
In order to understand the Bible I mu of it all. If he truly was available to me, I wanted to meet him.
That's about it.
[/b]No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
{end quote}
This is interesting because I was a Christian for most of my life (I “accepted” Christ as a kid through my Mother’s gentle coaxing, but did not begin to truly feel the lord’s presence in my life until about 16-17), and my faith was just fine until I started truly studying the Bible. My assumptions about the Bible were that it was all perfectly true (if not perfectly clear), and if I could know the Bible better then I could know God better.
So, I studied the Bible for years, consulted with dozens of people over the rough bits, sought out people with a background in Hebrew, even had a conversation with a Rabbi that lasted through two meals and well into the night (to this day the best conversation I have ever had). Do I think this makes me an expert? Hardly…all I’m trying to prove is that I have tried very hard to understand what is in the Bible, surely much harder than most of the Christians I have encountered through the course of my life. Further, this was not an entirely intellectual pursuit on my part; I spent the better part of a year trying to teach myself to read the Bible with my heart rather than my eyes/brain. I prayed continually, asking God to grant me further insights…I honestly don’t know what else I could have done.
My study of the Word eventually led me to Theodicy, and after experiencing the backward logic and intellectual dishonesty rampant in the field, and still lacking an acceptable level of confidence in the Bible, I abandoned my faith. I wrote off the feelings and experiences that I had had which made God real to me as wishful thinking, and I moved on…I have never been happier.
This process took 14 years. I tried to stop a number of times because it was negatively affecting my faith, and I wanted to love God more than I wanted to understand his book, but I kept coming back to it…like a junkie to his drug of choice. Abandoning my faith was the second hardest thing I have ever done, and while I’m doing very well now the process was agonizing.
I continue to study the Bible at a much more relaxed pace, and I seek out theists to fellowship with because I have a strong intellectual curiosity for why everyone does not come to the same conclusion I did. Maybe I just want to know what is wrong with them, more likely I want to know what is wrong with me. Many of them question my original faith, suggesting it was not “real” to begin with. Some question my search/study, which makes me very angry since I worked so hard at it and invested so much time into it. Here is the rub though…ALL of them tell me that as things stand now I will probably not be invited into God’s Kingdom when the time comes. Now, this doesn’t really bother me since I don’t believe in God or His Kingdom, but I’m always very curious to know what they think God will say to me if I ever stand in judgment before Him. I didn’t look hard enough? I didn’t position my tongue the right way when I prayed? What?
I’ll tell you one thing, if I ever find myself in the unenviable position of being told by God that I did not jump through the proper hoops, and consequently must depart from him…I won’t be going quietly.
PS – I sure hope this is reasonably interesting to people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.