13 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustInteresting suggestions of possible solutions (thumbs up). It's a shame GB did not try to come up with anything like this.
Good morning, GB, hope you had a good night's sleep.
Am I right in sensing that you were slightly shaken up when you read the more personalised version of our scenario? Your reaction indicates that you ARE sensitive to the reality of the situation when it is brought home rather than theoreticised.
This makes you run for your comfort zone, which is Off ...[text shortened]... el comfortable getting to heaven to worship someone who would on earth be a disgraced fireman...
I get the impression he was just uncomfortable with the looming cognitive dissonance and decided to avoid answering instead of searching for a consistent resolution. Possibly because it would mean changing his view on 'eternal punishment' for those who fail to accept the purported offer.
Penguin
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustAll 3 are clearly supported in the Bible, particularly if you were to add back in the books contained in the Septuagint ie the Bible of the Apostles. The idea of eternal torment is unbiblical and really is painting God as a cruel and unjust God.
Good morning, GB, hope you had a good night's sleep.
Am I right in sensing that you were slightly shaken up when you read the more personalised version of our scenario? Your reaction indicates that you ARE sensitive to the reality of the situation when it is brought home rather than theoreticised.
This makes you run for your comfort zone, which is Off ...[text shortened]... el comfortable getting to heaven to worship someone who would on earth be a disgraced fireman...
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by PenguinQuestion: "What does the Bible mean when it refers to the gnashing of teeth?"
Interesting suggestions of possible solutions (thumbs up). It's a shame GB did not try to come up with anything like this.
I get the impression he was just uncomfortable with the looming cognitive dissonance and decided to avoid answering instead of searching for a consistent resolution. Possibly because it would mean changing his view on 'eternal punishment' for those who fail to accept the purported offer.
Penguin
Answer: The phrase “gnashing of teeth” is found in several places in the Bible and is used exclusively in reference to the final judgment of sinners, either directly or in a parable. “Gnashing of teeth” is always combined with either “weeping” or “wailing.” The Greek phrase for “gnashing of teeth,” literally means the act of grinding one’s teeth together. When combined with “weeping,” it can be compared to hitting one’s thumb with a hammer, squeezing the eyes closed and grinding the teeth together hard in reaction to the pain. Weeping and gnashing of teeth in Scripture, however, is much more dreadful, partly because it lasts for eternity.
Jesus’ first reference to weeping and gnashing of teeth comes in Matthew 8:12 12" ...while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” where He compares the kingdom of heaven where “many” come from all parts of the world to “recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” The sons of the (other) kingdom, however, are thrown into “outer darkness” where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, a description of a truly horrible and painful fate. In His parable of the weeds sown in the field, Jesus again describes the fate of those who reject Him, this time adding to the description “the fiery furnace” into which they will be cast (Matthew 13:41-42) "41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".
The story of the guest who comes to the wedding feast of the Lamb without the proper clothing (salvation) is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 22:11-13), as is the wicked servant described in Matthew 24:44-51 "44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants4 and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." and the worthless servant in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
All these references to weeping and gnashing of teeth have one thing in common—the undeniable fact that those who do not belong to Christ will suffer this terrible fate, while His children will enjoy bliss in heaven with Him forever. In heaven, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4). The pain that causes the gnashing of teeth will be unknown in heaven, and there will be no weeping, no wailing and no tears. The sorrow and death that cause us to weep and mourn will be a thing of the past. Sickness, death, persecution, and sin will be no more.
Sadly, those who reject God will realize what they have truly lost and the realization that there is no “second chance” will cause them to feel the full weight of the pain that goes with that knowledge. The pain of being separated from God does not go away. It is eternal and unrelenting. We all deserve that kind of punishment: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23) but God, in His mercy, made it possible for us to avoid that eternal pain and suffering. Paul explains, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
All who accept the gift God has provided through the resurrection of Jesus Christ will escape the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Paul proclaims to the Romans “that if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved” (Romans 10:9-10). Jesus uses powerful imagery like wailing and gnashing of teeth to illustrate the importance of turning away from the sin that leads down that path and turning to Him who alone provides salvation." While he is not the author of every article on GotQuestions.org, for citation purposes, you may reference our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann." http://www.gotquestions.org/gnashing-of-teeth.html#ixzz2tCQBqTxq
13 Feb 14
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You know, GB, what I have discovered over quite a few years on RHP, is that people normally respect (and like to hear) your own thoughts and ideas.
Just cut&pasting somebody else's ideas just doesn't cut it.
In fact, who reads these long treatises?
I certainly don't.
(Would you engage the Watchtower guys in a debate if all they did was quote from their publications??)
ðŸ˜
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustHmmm, I thought I gave you an answer. That God does indeed "step in". Maybe the way in which God chooses to step in, isn't the way you think he should. God's ways are certainly different than our own. Why one person may survive a ship wreck while all others perish. "Life of Pi." I choose not to tell God what I think He should do, for the most part. (I have stood before God on behalf of another, not caring for my own sake. And argued with God about it.)
There is certainly a time and place to " provide adequate salvation information" but this is not it!
You are doing an excellent job of avoiding answering one very simple question: why is it OK for a fireman to save somebody against their will, but not for God?
Why is it so difficult for you guys to answer this very simple question?
Could it possibly be intellectual dishonesty?
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by PudgenikSorry, P, wasn't ignoring you. I was really trying to get some reaction from the guys who believe in eternal punishment.
Hmmm, I thought I gave you an answer. That God does indeed "step in". Maybe the way in which God chooses to step in, isn't the way you think he should. God's ways are certainly different than our own. Why one person may survive a ship wreck while all others perish. "Life of Pi." I choose not to tell God what I think He should do, for the most part. (I have ...[text shortened]... tood before God on behalf of another, not caring for my own sake. And argued with God about it.)
Also, the issue isn't really about God "stepping in" or not. It is safe to assume that we all agree that God at times sovereignly acts to save somebody (e.g. in your shipwreck) and not others.
The issue that I was trying to (unsuccessfully, it appears) get GB and RJH to consider, is why God cannot step in sovereignly to save somebody from a fate far worse than a shipwreck.
14 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustI want to say something, but i can't do it here. Will send you a message
Sorry, P, wasn't ignoring you. I was really trying to get some reaction from the guys who believe in eternal punishment.
Also, the issue isn't really about God "stepping in" or not. It is safe to assume that we all agree that God at times sovereignly acts to save somebody (e.g. in your shipwreck) and not others.
The issue that I was trying to (unsucce ...[text shortened]... , is why God cannot step in sovereignly to save somebody from a fate far worse than a shipwreck.
Originally posted by CalJustThe issue that I was trying to (unsuccessfully, it appears) get GB and RJH to consider, is why God cannot step in sovereignly to save somebody from a fate far worse than a shipwreck.
Sorry, P, wasn't ignoring you. I was really trying to get some reaction from the guys who believe in eternal punishment.
Also, the issue isn't really about God "stepping in" or not. It is safe to assume that we all agree that God at times sovereignly acts to save somebody (e.g. in your shipwreck) and not others.
The issue that I was trying to (unsucce ...[text shortened]... , is why God cannot step in sovereignly to save somebody from a fate far worse than a shipwreck.
You are unsuccessful at it because you have described a fruit salad but insisting it's an apple.
God is sovereign.
He created man as a facsimile of Himself.
One of the characteristics He endowed to man which is similar to His own is free will, the ability to choose.
God cannot and will not violate the free will of another free agent, therefore man is truly free to choose Him or reject Him.
Every person who has ever been born on this earth has had that same choice, albeit with a few exceptions.
God also had/has a plan for those exceptions, too.
We can endlessly agree how no one wants to go to hell, but it seems odd to say that, to all agree on the point, and yet when free salvation is offered to the one so protesting... they decline?
Who does that make sense to?
It doesn't cost you anything, there are no rules to follow, no secret handshake to learn or vices to give up; it's free.
Free, as in, no cost or obligation.
Call now.
14 Feb 14
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHHi Freaky,
You are unsuccessful at it because you have described a fruit salad but insisting it's an apple.
God ... created man as a facsimile of Himself.
One of the characteristics He endowed to man which is similar to His own is free will, the ability to choose.
God cannot and will not violate the free will of another free agent, therefore man is truly free to choose Him or reject Him
Sorry, your fruit salad/apple analogy escapes me....
When you disagree with a particular statement i make, or challenge a position i take, that's perfectly fine - that is what discussion is about.
But it seems to me that you haven't even read my OP. I really can't see how I can state the problem that I am posing any simpler.
I don't disagree with anything you said in your post. Yes, God gave men free will, to chose Him or reject Him. YES, all men should chose Him! It is inconceivable that anybody would reject and despise such a wonderful and loving offer! None of that is being disputed!
I am going to only pose this question one more time in this tread for your benefit, and then call it a day.
Imagine a hypothetical fireman (human!) rushing to a house on fire and finding a person inside. He climbs up the ladder and offers the poor victim a way of escape. "Come here!" he shouts, "I can save you!"
Now we all agree that the victim has free will, he can accept or reject the offer. (God made him that way, as you rightly point out).
And we all agree that by rights he SHOULD accept this free offer, because the fireman is risking his own life, and is begging him to come to him.
Unfortunately we also know of cases where such a free offer has been rejected. We've seen the movies. For some reason or other, which is not important here (let's say the person's mother told him to never talk to strangers, or he is looking for a treasure in the fire that he is unwilling to let go, or whatever) the person refuses the fireman's invitation, actually saying to him: "Leave me alone! Go away!"
The general consensus of respondents in this thread agree that if the fireman were to FORCE himself on the victim AGAINST HIS FREE WILL and save his life, that such a fireman would be praised and even win some kind of medal.
The simple question i posed is why do we think God incapable of such actions? Is he less noble than said fireman?
I really don't know how to pose the problem any simpler. But somehow most of the respondents have simply refused to face it, and reply (like you did) with a sermon on how God has given us free will, etc, and how he cannot violate that, etc etc. THAT IS MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY! My question is why can a fireman violate somebody's free will and be praised for it, whilst God apparantly cannot?
I see i am beginning to repeat myself. Time to close this thread.....
14 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhat would you do if you could save your grandchildren from a fire but they wouldn't want you to, GB? Would you use force to save or would you accept their decision and let them burn to death?
Please see CJ's clarified hypothetical and my reply.
Note: Here's the reality behind our conversational burning building metaphor:
_____________________________________________
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 157295
[b]The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15 NASB)
[i]"If anyone's name was not ...[text shortened]... y that some of my acquaintances and friends who contribute to this forum may be among them. -Bob[/b]
14 Feb 14
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Originally posted by Great King RatAn unimaginable hypothetical [grandfather/grandchildren in peril yet refusing rescue from someone they love] scenario isn't a workable premise. If the victim was a great king rat... I'd drag it to safety by its tail. Then offer it a frosty beer. :-)
What would you do if you could save your grandchildren from a fire but they wouldn't want you to, GB? Would you use force to save or would you accept their decision and let them burn to death?
15 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustYou error in judging God as you would a man, they are not remotely
This post is in response to recent posts in various threads referring to salvation and eternal damnation, e.g. In Revelations 20.
Consider the worst murderers you know: Manson, Jack the Ripper, Hitler.
OK, let's take Hitler. He killed 6 million people. Let's say he tortured those 6million and then burned them in gas ovens. Now multiply that by a thous ...[text shortened]... ee if there maybe something really abhorrent about that idea, which demands another explanation.
the same.
Kelly
15 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustConsider a being eternal. A being of infinite power. One of a kind. A being with no equal. A single, solitary being that creates everything that exists.
This post is in response to recent posts in various threads referring to salvation and eternal damnation, e.g. In Revelations 20.
Consider the worst murderers you know: Manson, Jack the Ripper, Hitler.
OK, let's take Hitler. He killed 6 million people. Let's say he tortured those 6million and then burned them in gas ovens. Now multiply that by a thous ...[text shortened]... ee if there maybe something really abhorrent about that idea, which demands another explanation.
It's all His. He can do with His creation whatever He wills. And there's nothing anyone or anything can do to stop Him from doing as He pleases.
Consider that!
Now consider your options.
15 Feb 14
Originally posted by josephwYes and with this knowledge, doesn't just amaze you that this God would say to it's creation, "what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loose in heaven" Jesus to Peter
Consider a being eternal. A being of infinite power. One of a kind. A being with no equal. A single, solitary being that creates everything that exists.
It's all His. He can do with His creation whatever He wills. And there's nothing anyone or anything can do to stop Him from doing as He pleases.
Consider that!
Now consider your options.
15 Feb 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThanks for so deftly avoiding the question, K.
You error in judging God as you would a man, they are not remotely
the same.
Kelly
Of course God is not a man. Yet strangely the Bible is chockfull of incidents of God being described as having "human" emotions - anger, jealousy, love, remorse, compassion, the full gamut - so trying to imagine what emotion He would have in such a situation is neither far-fetched nor anti-scriptural.