04 Jan 11
Originally posted by John W BoothI will assume that by that you mean that you do not believe the account of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
I don't subscribe to the Jesus story.
I will assume that it is not necessary for me to say "The story you don't subscribe to, is not the story that I subscribe to."
I will assume you mean that you don't believe the New Testament document.
04 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillMy spirituality is not connected to Jesus in any way whatsoever. And I don't believe any of the things you believe about his significance for humanity.
I will assume that by that you mean that you do not believe the account of [b]Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
I will assume that it is not necessary for me to say "The story you don't subscribe to, is not the story that I subscribe to."
I will assume you mean that you don't believe the New Testament document.[/b]
04 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by John W BoothI see.
I don't believe what has been written about his spiritual significance or his claims or beliefs at all.
You believe what has been written about Jesus, in the New Testament, are lies.
You believe the words attributed to Jesus are not the words of Jesus.
You believe the spiritual signigicance as Jesus Himself supposedly spoke, are actually the fabrications of imaginations putting lying interpretations into the mouth of Jesus.
So perhaps where we see a record of Jesus saying "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25) maybe what Jesus really said was "Hey Peter, pass me a piece of fish".
Benigh, insignificant, quite ordinary and common utterances of someone, were fictitiously blown up imaginatively out of all proportion. And thus we have a fictitious New Testament about a quite ordinary bloke, a regular chap.
Something like this.
Well, I would only be curious about one other thing. Would you say that same thing for Saul of Tarsus? The man who penned some 13 of the 27 New Testament books, Paul.
Would you say that you also do not believe what he said he believed about Jesus ? Did someone also concoct a character Paul and invent words to put into his mouth as well ?
04 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillWhat has been written about Jesus has no meaning for me, jaywill. I am not interested in the motivations of the people that have written about what they thought or claim he said and what they thought or hoped the meaning (of what they thought or claimed he said) was.
You believe what has been written about Jesus, in the New Testament, are lies.
04 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillI think this is something for you to concern yourself with, not me. Nor am I going to concern myself at all with your mocking tone.
So perhaps where we see a record of Jesus saying [b]"I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25) maybe what Jesus really said was "Hey Peter, pass me a piece of fish".[/b]
04 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by John W Booth================================
That is correct. I do not believe the same things as Paul said he believed about Jesus.
That is correct. I do not believe the same things as Paul said he believed about Jesus.
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That is not what I asked. You answered a different question from what I asked.
I didn't say "Do you believe the same things as Paul said he believed?"
I said "Would you say that you also do not believe what he said he believed about Jesus ?
If it was not clear, I mean do you believe Paul SAID these things or that they were fictitiously said on his behalf?
Nevermind.
04 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillThe crux of the matter is that I do not believe the same things as Paul said he believed about Jesus nor the things that you say you believe about Jesus.
That is not what I asked. You answered a different question from what I asked.
I didn't say "Do you believe the same things as Paul said he believed?"
04 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by John W Booth========================================
The crux of the matter is that I do not believe the same things as Paul said he believed about Jesus nor the things that you say you believe about Jesus.
The crux of the matter is that I do not believe the same things as Paul said he believed about Jesus nor the things that you say you believe about Jesus.
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To me the crux of the matter is that it requires more "faith" to come up with an alternative explanation as to why one who persecuted Christians, not only in unbelief like you, but in hardcore opposition, would say the things he said latter.
It is one thing for the disciples of Jesus to claim some things. It is another to GET someone like Paul to believe them.
Basically, your position is you don't care. You're just not interested. Fine. But its not too rational and I think you make more of a blind leap of something like faith then I do.
04 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillIt does not involve anything remotely akin to a "blind leap of faith" to tell you that I find the stories about Paul and Jesus not compelling and not relevant to me personally.
It is one thing for the disciples of Jesus to claim some things. It is another to GET someone like [b]Paul to believe them.[/b]