Originally posted by twhiteheadJesus was God's ONLY Son in that He was immaculately conceived through God and the Virgin Mary. He was born without sin; however, we humans are born unto sin, even though we are considered Gos's children because we were created in God's image.
So why do some people call Jesus 'Gods only son'?
Originally posted by dystoniacBut to any atheist ( like myself ) it is NOT God-bashing in the literal sense because I do NOT believe there is a “god” to “bash”.
Exactly my point!! There being more atheists on this website than fleas on a camel's bollocks, I still see God-bashing in the extreme...care to explai that?
Of course, to any theists that somehow believes “atheists” actually believe there is a god ( I don’t know how they manage to maintain that self-contradiction in their heads but apparently some manage to do this somehow ) it would SEEM to them that atheists are, quite literally, tying to “bash-God” -but they are simply wrong.
Of course, atheists would ( and usually do ) try and “bash” the BELIEF the theists have that there is a god just as theists would ( and usually do ) try and “bash” the DISBELIEF the atheists have that there is a god -I think neither of these two things is surprising.
Originally posted by dystoniacOn the Internet when you start a Discussion Forum on things like "Faith" or "Spirituality" or "Bible Study" it is the garaunteed quickest way to attract a crowd of atheists.
Exactly my point!! There being more atheists on this website than fleas on a camel's bollocks, I still see God-bashing in the extreme...care to explai that?
Originally posted by twhiteheadtwhitehead asks why some Christians refer to the only Son. Then asks again
Please re-read my question. I asked about 'only son'.
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Please re-read my question. I asked about 'only son'.
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The jest of the exchange is "If God is the Father of all humans then why is Jesus called by some Christians the only Son?"
Jesus is called the only begotten Son in the New Testament, for example (John 3:16). Based on that believers refer to Him as the only Son.
However other Christians, myself included, also realize that the New Testament also refers to Jesus as the "Firstborn "Son of God. Firstborn implies that after the first son their are other sons to follow. So He is the "Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom.8:29).
That passage teaches that Jesus is the Firstborn Son of God and has "many brothers" who are the subsequent sons of God.
So the New Testament refers to both the only Son of God and the Firstborn Son of God. Now what is the difference?
The Only Son of God refers mainly to Christ in His eternal preexistence and His incarnation as a man. The Firstborn Son of God refers to Christ in His resurrection from the dead. In fact it is based upon His resurrection from the dead that He is able to impart His divine life into forgiven sinners to regenerate them to be born of God as God's sons as well. The Apostle Peter reminds us:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)
He was in eternity past and in incarnation the only begotten Son of God. In resurrection He is still the only begotten Son of God in one sense. But in another very important sense He is the Firstborn Son of God. By His resurrection He has caused many other sons of God to be regenerated, born of the Spirit, born of God, born from above.
When the writer of the book of Hebrews speaks of the second coming of Christ the title used is not "Only Begotten Son" but Firstborn
"And when He [God] brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth,..." (Heb 1:6)
Christ comes again into the inhabited earth in His second coming in status as the Firstborn Son of God.
There is more usage of the phrase Only Begotten Son because the majority of Christian evangelicals emphasize Christ's incarnation and death on the cross for our redemption. Though they do speak of His resurrection not many have grasped the fuller significance of it. To them Christ's coming is mostly about saving us from eternal damnation. But today some more are realizing that regeneration, transformation, conformation to produce more sons of God is a vital aspect of God's full salvation.
The New Testament has always reveal both aspects. This is a brief word on the subject.
Now to the matter of unbelievers. In one sense God as the Creator of all human beings makes all of us His offspring. But this is not according to the new creation in the Holy Spirit. This is only in relation to our having been created by God. So Paul taught affirmed the pagan poet's truth when they said that all people are the offspring of God (See Acts 17:24-29).
And the Gospel of Luke refers to the first human being created, Adam, as the [son] of God (Luke 4:38)
But of all these offspring of God by means of God's creation some, in relation to God's new covenant salvation, are refered to as children of God because of their acceptance of Christ and others are called children of the devil because of their refusal to repent and their opposition to Christ:
For example:
"Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love Me; for I came forth out from God and have come [from Him] ... You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desire of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. when he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own possessions; for he is a liar and the father of it." (See John 8:42-44)
Here Jesus says that Satan the Devil, the liar and the murderer from the beginning is the father of the unrepentent sinners. And that their desire to oppose Jesus Christ is them carrying out the desire of their father the devil.
The Apostle John also deliniates between the children of God through Christ's salvation and the children of the devil, those in need of that salvation:
"Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest." (1 John 3:9,10)
This comment of mine is not intended to be a full exposition of the Epistle of First John. My point here is to show that both Christ and His apostle draw a line between children of God and children of the devil - ie. those with God as their Father and those with the devil as their father, in relation to the new testament salvation.
The climax of God's salvation for believers is that they would all mature into sons of God in eternity:
"He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and the false their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:7,8)
The contrast here is obvious. In verse 7 the condition of overcoming (through faith) leads these forgiven sinners to become sons of God for eternity. In verse 8 those defeated by their unbelief or their refusal to receive salvation partake of eternal punishment.
You have sons of God on one hand and partakers of eternal punishment on the other. Both are conditional destinies. So all created human beings will not be sons of God in this sense in eternity.
Originally posted by jaywillFor you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” - Romans 8:15
twhitehead asks why some Christians refer to the only Son. Then asks again
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Please re-read my question. I asked about 'only son'.
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The jest of the exchange is "If God is the Father of all humans then why is Jesus called by some Christians the only Son?"
...[text shortened]... ed human beings will not be sons of God in this sense in eternity.[/b]
in what sense are we meant to understand this text, why are those who are Gods sons described in the verse as being the adoptive sons of God?
the translation coming from Greek huiothesias literaly “Of adoption as sons.” or “of placing as son.” and the Latin adoptionis filiorum.
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For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” - Romans 8:15
in what sense are we meant to understand this text, why are those who are Gods sons described in the verse as being the adoptive sons of God?
the translation coming from Greek huiothesias literaly “Of adoption as sons.” or “of placing as son.” and the Latin adoptionis filiorum.
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The word huiothesias is I think better translated sonship. The place of a son. I prefer sonship om Romans 8:15 and in Ephesians 1:5 and Galatians 5:5.
The modern sense of the word adoption is limited to a change in by means of a legal process. But regeneration is more than simply a change in status due to a legal transfer. Regeneration is a mingling of God's Spirit with the human spirit. And now I will demonstrate this using the very verse Romans 8:15 by comparing it with its sister passage Galatians 4:6.
Quoting from the Recovery New Testament:
1.) "For you have not received a spirit of slavery [bringing you] into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba, Father!" (Rom. 8:15).
2.) "and because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father!" (Gal. 4:6)
The first passage says that the believers are the ones crying Abba, Father!". But the second passage says that it is the Spirit of the Son of God who cries in the believers "Abba, Father!"
So who cries Abba Father Paul? Is it the believers from their regenerated human spirit crying? Or is it the Spirit of the Son of God within them crying?
The answer is in the nature of regeneration in that it mingles the Holy Spirit with the human spirit and causes the two to become one united and mingled spirit:
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
This means the injection of one life into another life. This means the union of one Divine Person into another person. This is the fusion of the Spirit of Christ into the human spirit to cause the man or woman to be blended and united with Jesus Christ. The believer cries "Abba, Father". Yet it is also the Spirit of the Son of God within crying "Abba, Father!".
The point is that more than adoption in a legal sense has occured. One Person with His life has been born into another person to cause the two to become united.
Back to Romans 8 Paul writes: "The Spirit Himself bears withness with our spirit that we are the children of God" (ROm. 8:16)
Deep within the one who has received Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Who is God and Who is the Spirit of Christ, bears witness in conjunction with the witnessesing human spirit that the believer now has an organic family relationship in life with the Father. As the believer cries together with the Spirit of the Son so also his regenerated human spirit bears witness together with the Spirit of God that God is now his Daddy, his Papa, his Abba. That is an intimate term of closeness with God.
In the believer the legal and judicial redemption has brought about the possibility for the believer to recevie another life into him. Receiving another spiritual life is having a new life born within him. Because of justification by faith he can be born of God's life. That is why Paul writes:
"... the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10)
Because I have been justified and declared forgiven as if I had NEVER SINNED, I am put on a righteous standing before God. My righteousness is actually Jesus Christ Himself. I have exhanged my past, my legacy, my history for Jesus Christ Himself. Now my history is Jesus. Now my legacy is Jesus. Now my past is simply Jesus Christ. So "the spirit is life because of righteousness."
That is the ZOE life of God. That is the spirit is the ZOE divine life of God.
My human spirit is joined to the living Person of the Lord - joined to the Lord = one spirit with the Lord. My comatose human spirit is enlivened because of righteousness. My human spirit is quickened and made alive with God Himself because of righteousness. Now God is not simply my Creator. He is my Daddy, my Abba, my own dear and intimate Papa.
So I feel that sonship is a better translation than adoption. Regeneration is an organic matter which involves God's SPERM - God's SEED (so to speak), see First John 3:9 - " ... because His [God's] SEED abides in him"
There is not just a change in position. There is a infusion of new life and nature. The human life has been compounded with the eternal life of God embodied in Jesus and conveyed into man by the Holy Spirit - not simply a force but a Person.
Adoption is not really wrong. I think it is just not as adaquate an English word as to convey the organic birth of God's life into the believer in Christ.
Originally posted by jaywillmmmmmm, there are some quite deep things here that need clarification if i can fathom it out ill get back to you jaywill - regards robbie.
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For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” - Romans 8:15
in what sense are we meant to understand this text, why are those who are Gods sons described in the verse as being the adoptive sons of Go y the organic birth of God's life into the believer in Christ.[/b]