Originally posted by bill718
You are falling into an age old trap. Your trying to use human logic to deal with the subject of God. It dosen't work that way.

Well then, tell me how it works.

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: "I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it."

It ain't necessarily so -I had the feeling you were the one who was not willing to take me up on it
😵

"It ain't necessarily so -I had the feeling you were the one who was not willing to take me up on it"

How so?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"It ain't necessarily so -I had the feeling you were the one who was not willing to take me up on it"

How so?[/b]

I took no reply from you to my first post of the first page of this thread
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
For starters I would have to define God, and then I would have to recognize the existence of this specific epistemic object. This epistemic object (God) would have to be identical to a completely expressible observer that contains an exchangeable and finite packet of physical information
😵

The reason I didn't reply to this post in the first place is because it makes no sense and has nothing to do with the structure of how I framed the debate.

If there were a God/Creator, how would you know?

Your need for a definition of God is irrelevant. Let's say God was a big green hairy bug. How would you know it existed and was big, green, and hairy?

Because you saw it crawl up to you and say "hi, I'm God".


But just for sh ts and giggles, why don't you define God and then tell me how you came by that knowledge. I'd be very interested in hearing it.

Originally posted by josephw
Well then, tell me how it works.

OK...it works this way. "Faith"...that's the only way it can work. One day, after the crusifiction a man named Thomas did not recognize Jesus. Thomas said (pharaphrased) "Unless I see the nail marks in your hands I will not believe it is you." Upon showing Thomas the marks, Jesus said "You see, and now believe, blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe"

Faith is a gift, and the path to God. We, as mortals are incapable of knowing God by any other path. (Including human logic). So forget about trying to find a logical conclusion regarding God. There isn't one.

Originally posted by josephw
The reason I didn't reply to this post in the first place is because it makes no sense and has nothing to do with the structure of how I framed the debate.

If there were a God/Creator, how would you know?

Your need for a definition of God is irrelevant. Let's say God was a big green hairy bug. How would you know it existed and was big, green, and hairy ...[text shortened]... od and then tell me how you came by that knowledge. I'd be very interested in hearing it.

Your question was:
-- "If there were a God/ Creator, how would you know?"
My answer is:
-- "For starters I would have to define God, and then I would have to recognize the existence of this specific epistemic object. This epistemic object (God) would have to be identical to a completely expressible observer that contains an exchangeable and finite packet of physical information".
Methinks my answer is clear but I will rephrase it: I fail to recognize the existence of the epistemic object you defined as "god/ big green hairy bug". This epistemic object is non-existent because it is not identical to a completely expressible observer that contains this exchangeable and finite packet of physical information. Therefore I conclude that the entity you defined as "god/ big green hairy bug" is a product of your own mind alone
😵

.Originally posted by josephw
The reason I didn't reply to this post in the first place is because it makes no sense and has nothing to do with the structure of how I framed the debate.

If there were a God/Creator, how would you know?

Your need for a definition of God is irrelevant. Let's say God was a big green hairy bug. How would you know it existed and was big, green, and hair ...[text shortened]... od and then tell me how you came by that knowledge. I'd be very interested in hearing it.

There is an issue here, with all of us.

Beliefs are constraints.

Can we be in two places at once?

For the scientist (quantum guy like me) the answer is yes.

The larger side of life is : : "Do we really need to find these answers now, and not be content with what we have and give the best to out neighbours?"

We quantum guys will pass thru holes u know nothing about in your petty arguing about how u are going to die and what u take with you. May your God go with u.

Originally posted by mikelom
There is an issue here, with all of us.

Beliefs are constraints.

Can we be in two places at once?

For the scientist (quantum guy like me) the answer is yes.

The larger side of life is : : "Do we really need to find these answers now, and not be content with what we have and give the best to out neighbours?"

We quantum guys will pass thru holes ...[text shortened]... r petty arguing about how u are going to die and what u take with you. May your God go with u.

Doesn't matter what you believe, s**t will happen either way... 😵

Originally posted by bill718
OK...it works this way. "Faith"...that's the only way it can work. One day, after the crusifiction a man named Thomas did not recognize Jesus. Thomas said (pharaphrased) "Unless I see the nail marks in your hands I will not believe it is you." Upon showing Thomas the marks, Jesus said "You see, and now believe, blessed are those who do not see, and yet belie ic). So forget about trying to find a logical conclusion regarding God. There isn't one.

OK...it works this way. "Faith"...that's the only way it can work. One day, after the crusifiction

I don't usually highlight typos/spelling mistakes but I liked this one (well the part I bolded anyway)!

Originally posted by mikelom
There is an issue here, with all of us.

Beliefs are constraints.

Can we be in two places at once?

For the scientist (quantum guy like me) the answer is yes.

The larger side of life is : : "Do we really need to find these answers now, and not be content with what we have and give the best to out neighbours?"

We quantum guys will pass thru holes ...[text shortened]... r petty arguing about how u are going to die and what u take with you. May your God go with u.

"We quantum guys will pass thru holes u know nothing about in your petty arguing about how u are going to die and what u take with you. May your God go with u."

Well, quantum guy, I hope you don't get too dizzy way up there on your pedestal.

Did you notice how you, and everyone else failed miserably to address the question posed in this thread?

Can't handle it?

Originally posted by black beetle
Your question was:
-- "If there were a God/ Creator, how would you know?"
My answer is:
-- "For starters I would have to define God, and then I would have to recognize the existence of this specific epistemic object. This epistemic object (God) would have to be identical to a completely expressible observer that contains an exchangeable and finite pa ...[text shortened]... tity you defined as "god/ big green hairy bug" is a product of your own mind alone
😵

You must be inadvertently misunderstanding the purpose of my question.

I did not say "there was a God" therefore how would you know?

I tried to phrase the question as objectively as I could.

"If there were a God/Creator, how would you know?"

So, perhaps I should modify the question. If there were a being of infinite proportions beyond our abilities to define, how would we know such a being existed?"

Originally posted by josephw
How do you know you exist?

By your senses, right?

Then why can't your senses tell you there is a creator by the existence of creation?

Why assume that the universe came into existence without a cause?

If a schizophrenic preacher convinced he heard god every day and his flock believed him, does the flock feel the presence of god?

Originally posted by sonhouse
If a schizophrenic preacher convinced he heard god every day and his flock believed him, does the flock feel the presence of god?

No!

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"We quantum guys will pass thru holes u know nothing about in your petty arguing about how u are going to die and what u take with you. May your God go with u."

Well, quantum guy, I hope you don't get too dizzy way up there on your pedestal.

Did you notice how you, and everyone else failed miserably to address the question posed in this thread?

Can't handle it?[/b]

You want to compare apples with peaches.

How would we know if there were a creator?

Well, there is a huge difference between non-dualists and people that think god is a separate entity from creation. So for this very basic reason, we are literally in different "ballparks" and cant really get on the same page, despite talking about god.

edit:and you didn't answer bill718's answer to your question, despite him giving you an answer to a pretty tough question. Is that how you roll ususally? 😛

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You want to compare apples with peaches.

How would we know if there were a creator?

Well, there is a huge difference between non-dualists and people that think god is a separate entity from creation. So for this very basic reason, we are literally in different "ballparks" and cant really get on the same page, despite talking about god.

edit:and ...[text shortened]... spite him giving you an answer to a pretty tough question. Is that how you roll ususally? 😛

A rolling stone gathers no moss.

Why do you insist on accepting explanations for everything based on human reasoning? The reason there is such a thing as a "non-dualist" is because of human reasoning. There are two paths one can go by. One can live and breath in a world he believes is without a creator, or he can acknowledge the existence of the creator of all that exists.

I opened this thread with a very simple question. So far the only answers I have read have not answered the question.

For example, your post, of which I am replying to now. You too have failed to answer the question. Why? Could it be because in your capacity to reason you lack the necessary elements of perception, observation, experience, and knowledge, where by you could at least try to answer the question without obfuscating, changing the subject or topic, and debasing the debate into an argument?

Just as in the real world it's hard to find an individual who is honest with himself. After all, that's were it has to begin.