Originally posted by lucifershammer
Murder is natural too (especially for humans).

Killing is natural. Murder is not. From a biological standpoint, murder
is the unnecessary (e.g., not self defense) or unwarranted (e.g.,
not punitive) killing of an individual within the propinquity group of the
killer. Murder has never been tolerated within any known group of
humans because it undermines the trust, cooperation, and sense of
community which is parcel to human social evolution. Survival depends
on most humans avoiding murder most of the time. If murder became
a biological advantageous enterprise, then it would be built into our
moral code to encourage murder, and no known social group does that
(and we can see why, because a group that did encourage it would end
up killing amongst itself, limiting the expression of its genes).

The reason that killing has remained part of modern human interaction
is because we fail to define our propinquity groups broadly. In the past
and present we have seen Shiites opine that Sunnis are the 'other'
and so it isn't murder, but killing. The Crips opine that the Bloods are
the 'other,' so it's permissible. White folk label black folk as 'other,'
Germans label Jews as 'other,' and so forth. Once you dehumanize
a group of people, you cease to have empathy for them and it ceases
to be murder (socially speaking) and becomes killing.

Nemesio

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Is it really possible? Since nobody has actually been perfect in the history of mankind (Jesus doesn't count, because he's allegedly a deity), it's a slim possibility at best.

Is it not God who decides who is perfect and who is not?

If you say that it is impossible to live a victorious life over sin, then I strongly disagree.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Classic non-answer. I find it richly ironic that you christians who claim to have such a deep understanding of scripture always stall when asked to discuss anything specific about it.

I was a christian for 20+ years. I read the bible cover-to-cover numerous times. Instead of finding deeper meaning, my skepticism grew until I abandoned the faith.

I'm not impressed by people who claimed to have been Christians for 20 years and dropped out in favor of skepticism.

These kinds of testimonials don't impress me. How do I know what your experience was for 20 years?

Some people make ship wreck of their Christian life not because of intellectual problems but because of problems of unconfessed sins and an enceasingly soiled conscience.

How do I know what you were doing for 20 years while you were allegedly reading the bible from cover to cover?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The vast majority of humans used to think lust was wrong as well (difficulty of legislation notwithstanding).

Maybe laws on murder will change some day as well.

EDIT: Besides, many cultures didn't have blanket bans on murder until relatively recently.

EDIT2: Many cultures certainly had laws against adultery and fornication.

People have believed murder is wrong ever since the biblical days (probably earlier, but my ancient history knowledge is rusty). That's why it's one of the ten commandments. However, belief alone does not make laws, or enforce them.

Adultery and fornication are not the same thing as lust.

Originally posted by jaywill
I'm not impressed by people who claimed to have been Christians for 20 years and dropped out in favor of skepticism.

These kinds of testimonials don't impress me. How do I know what your experience was for 20 years?

Some people make ship wreck of their Christian life not because of intellectual problems but because of problems of unconfessed si ...[text shortened]... at you were doing for 20 years while you were allegedly reading the bible from cover to cover?

What's your point? If you are going to be that skeptical, why even bother coming here? You can't prove jack over the internet.

I can't rule out the possibility that you're really an atheist pretending to be a christian just to yank people's chains. However, in the interest of actual discussion, I choose to accept your claim of faith, as long as there is not obvious evidence otherwise.

I consider myself a skeptic, but you just surpassed me with that gem of a post.

Originally posted by jaywill
Some people make ship wreck of their Christian life not because of intellectual problems but because of problems of unconfessed sins and an enceasingly soiled conscience.

Would you actually admit that some people do leave the faith because of intellectual problems? If not, hadn't you better change that 'some' to 'all'?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
What's your point? If you are going to be that skeptical, why even bother coming here? You can't prove jack over the internet.

I can't rule out the possibility that you're really an atheist pretending to be a christian just to yank people's chains. However, in the interest of actual discussion, I choose to accept your claim of faith, as long as the ...[text shortened]... cause of intellectual problems? If not, hadn't you better change that 'some' to 'all'?

I you are trying to understand everything about God, then you might just as well give up!

It is like trying to pour the entire ocean into a bucket, if you are trying to figure out everything about God with with your small human mind.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Is it not God who decides who is perfect and who is not?

If you say that it is impossible to live a victorious life over sin, then I strongly disagree.

Jesus is the one who said that we should all live up to the standard of perfection set by the heavenly father, not me.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Jesus is the one who said that we should all live up to the standard of perfection set by the heavenly father, not me.

And your point is? Should we not be striving to reach for perfection?

The same Jesus said that we should strive to enter in through the narrow gate.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I you are trying to understand everything about God, then you might just as well give up!

It is like trying to pour the entire ocean into a bucket, if you are trying to figure out everything about God with with your small human mind.

How is any of that relevant to my post?

Jeez, take your own advice. Realize that exploring matters of the metaphysical is not an easy task, drop the cocksure, arrogant attitude, and get some humility.

Originally posted by dj2becker
And your point is? Should we not be striving to reach for perfection?

The same Jesus said that we should strive to enter in through the narrow gate.

If you haven't got the point by now, you never will.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
If you haven't got the point by now, you never will.

Or maybe if you have failed to make your point by now, you never will.

I can also play this game...😀

(What a cop-out)