Originally posted by twhiteheadsee above and below, for i am in the process of elucidating everything for you, please be patient my friend.
Well if you are not even ready to give a basic summary but rather you and jaywill prefer the ridiculous tactic of saying to each other "Oh my, he doesn't know!" then, sorry, I wont be bothered to do my own research. Remember it is your religion not mine.
One other comment, as you appear not to mentioned it yet, in the Anglican Church (and I believe the R ...[text shortened]... must also be noted that they use unleavened bread in the ceremony as per passover tradition.
Customs at Passover Time. Great preparations were made in Jerusalem when the festival was due, as it was a requirement of the Law that every male Israelite and every male of the circumcised alien residents observe the Passover. (Nu 9:9-14) This meant that vast numbers would be making the journey to the city for some days in advance. They would come before the Passover in order to cleanse themselves ceremonially. (Joh 11:55) It is said that men were sent out about a month early to prepare the bridges and put the roads in good order for the convenience of the pilgrims. Since contact with a dead body rendered a person unclean, special precautions were taken to protect the traveler. As it was a practice to bury persons in the open field, if they died there, the graves were made conspicuous by being whitened a month ahead. (The Temple, by A. Edersheim, 1874, pp. 184, 185) This supplies background for Jesus words to the scribes and Pharisees, that they resembled “whitewashed graves.” Mt 23:27.
Accommodations were made available in the homes for those coming to Jerusalem for Passover observance. In an Oriental home all the rooms could be slept in, and several persons could be accommodated in one room. Also, the flat roof of the house could be used. Added to this is the fact that numbers of the celebrants obtained accommodations outside the city walls, especially at Bethphage and Bethany, two villages on the slopes of the Mount of Olives. Mr 11:1; 14:3.
Questions as to Time Order. It was a question of defilement that gave rise to the words: 'They themselves did not enter into the governors palace, that they might not get defiled but might eat the passover.' (Joh 18:28) These Jews considered it a defilement to enter into a Gentile dwelling. (Ac 10:28) This statement was made, however, 'early in the day,' hence after the Passover meal had taken place. It is to be noted that at this time the entire period, including Passover day and the Festival of Unfermented Cakes that followed, was at times referred to as “Passover.” In the light of this fact, Alfred Edersheim offers the following explanation: A voluntary peace offering was made on Passover and another, a compulsory one, on the next day, Nisan 15, the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes. It was this second offering that the Jews were afraid they might not be able to eat if they contracted defilement in the judgment hall of Pilate.—The Temple, 1874, pp. 186, 187.
“Preparation.” At John 19:14, the apostle John, in the midst of his description of the final part of Jesus’ trial before Pilate, says: “Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour [of the daytime, between 11:00 a.m. and noon].” This, of course, was after the time of the Passover meal, which had been eaten the night before. Similar expressions are found at verses 31 and 42. Here the Greek word paraskeue; is translated “preparation.” This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, which, in this instance, was “a great one,” namely, not only a Sabbath by virtue of being Nisan 15, the first day of the actual Festival of Unfermented Cakes, but also a weekly Sabbath. This is understandable, since, as already stated, “Passover” was sometimes used to refer to the entire festival.—Joh 19:31
Prophetic Significance. The apostle Paul, in urging Christians to live clean lives, attributes pictorial significance to the Passover. He says: “For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed.” (1Co 5:7) Here he likens Christ Jesus to the Passover lamb. John the Baptizer pointed to Jesus, saying: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!” (Joh 1:29) John may have had in mind the Passover lamb, or he could have been thinking of the male sheep that Abraham offered up instead of his own son Isaac or of the male lamb that was offered up upon Gods altar at Jerusalem each morning and evening.—Ge 22:13; Ex 29:38-42.
Certain features of the Passover observance were fulfilled by Jesus. One fulfillment lies in the fact that the blood on the houses in Egypt delivered the firstborn from destruction at the hands of the destroying angel. Paul speaks of anointed Christians as the congregation of the firstborn (Heb 12:23), and of Christ as their deliverer through his blood. (1Th 1:10; Eph 1:7) No bones were to be broken in the Passover lamb. It had been prophesied that none of Jesus’ bones would be broken, and this was fulfilled at his death. (Ps 34:20; Joh 19:36) Thus the Passover kept by the Jews for centuries was one of those things in which the Law provided a shadow of the things to come and pointed to Jesus Christ, “the Lamb of God.”—Heb 10:1; Joh 1:29.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThank you. You have given a lot of information about passover and some insight as to how the early Christians saw Jesus's crucification as a sacrifice strongly related to the passover sacrifice.
There Whitey my friend, knock yourself out!
Now what did I get wrong when I was trying to clarify what you were saying? If Jesus was celebrating passover and asked his followers to do so (with some modifications) then when you celebrate that are you not celebrating passover?
Originally posted by twhiteheadmmm, not not really, for the passover was a celebration of the fact that the 'angel of death', 'passed over', the 'first born of the Isrealites', while the Lords evening meal, or lords supper etc etc. is a celebration of the sacrifice that Christ gives on our behalf, which enables us to have a relationship with God, receive forgiveness of sins on its basis etc etc, but most noteworthy, its the institution of a covenant or an agreement if you like between the Christ and his heavenly father and the disciples for a kingdom, the Kingdom of God no less, on the basis of or the atoning value of his sacrifice! it is totally amazing! what you are here witnessing is the birth of Christianity! i will try to dig up some information so that you can better evaluate the differences through the comparison, give us a minute!
Thank you. You have given a lot of information about passover and some insight as to how the early Christians saw Jesus's crucification as a sacrifice strongly related to the passover sacrifice.
Now what did I get wrong when I was trying to clarify what you were saying? If Jesus was celebrating passover and asked his followers to do so (with some modifications) then when you celebrate that are you not celebrating passover?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd why did you feel it necessary to bring it to the attention of anyone? ie why talk about the celebration? Surely all Christians do know about it and do celebrate it and as I already pointed out many celebrate it every Sunday or even more frequently.
mmm, not not really, for the passover was a celebration of the fact that the 'angel of death', 'passed over', the 'first born of the Isrealites', while the Lords evening meal, or lords supper etc etc. is a celebration of the sacrifice that Christ gives on our behalf, which enables us to have a relationship with God, receive forgiveness of sins on its ...[text shortened]... so that you can better evaluate the differences through the comparison, give us a minute!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI have so far never been able to find a Christian willing to explain to me what that means in words I can understand. They always go on and on about it as if it is plain and obvious to all, but when I ask further they suddenly go silent. Knightmeister at least tried very hard to explain it to me but even he was very reluctant as he was worried I might be rude about it or attempt to ridicule his beliefs or something.
... on the basis of or the atoning value of his sacrifice!
I just find it amazing that what appears to be one of the most central concepts of Christianity is also one thing that Christians do not like to explain.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIts a simple concept. The problem you are having is 'why', instead of the 'what'.
I have so far never been able to find a Christian willing to explain to me what that means in words I can understand. They always go on and on about it as if it is plain and obvious to all, but when I ask further they suddenly go silent. Knightmeister at least tried very hard to explain it to me but even he was very reluctant as he was worried I might be ...[text shortened]... most central concepts of Christianity is also one thing that Christians do not like to explain.
What it is, is an atonement for sin via a blood sacrifice. Read Hebrews 9. Leviticus has it in great detail. A human sacrifice was required to atone for the sin of all mankind, which is what Christ undertook to do.
Why? Its a requirement of God. End of story. I suspect you will want to know why does God require that. There is no answer.
Originally posted by Rajk999There is an answer, but it is not our place to ask it. God (swt) has His reasons.
Its a simple concept. The problem you are having is 'why', instead of the 'what'.
What it is, is an atonement for sin via a blood sacrifice. Read Hebrews 9. Leviticus has it in great detail. A human sacrifice was required to atone for the sin of all mankind, which is what Christ undertook to do.
Why? Its a requirement of God. End of story. I suspect you will want to know why does God require that. There is no answer.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=======================================
[b]Customs at Passover Time. Great preparations were made in Jerusalem when the festival was due, as it was a requirement of the Law that every male Israelite and every male of the circumcised alien residents observe the Passover. (Nu 9:9-14) This meant that vast numbers would be making the journey to the city for some days in advance. They would ow of the things to come and pointed to Jesus Christ, “the Lamb of God.”—Heb 10:1; Joh 1:29.[/b]
Prophetic Significance. The apostle Paul, in urging Christians to live clean lives, attributes pictorial significance to the Passover. He says: “For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed.” (1Co 5:7) Here he likens Christ Jesus to the Passover lamb. John the Baptizer pointed to Jesus, saying: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!” (Joh 1:29) John may have had in mind the Passover lamb, or he could have been thinking of the male sheep that Abraham offered up instead of his own son Isaac or of the male lamb that was offered up upon Gods altar at Jerusalem each morning and evening.—Ge 22:13; Ex 29:38-42.
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I would like to add one point here Robbie. Paul says that Christ is the Christian's Passover. It is not that Christ is only the Passover Lamb. He is the entire Passover.
This is important to maintain the all inclusiveness of Christ. He is not only the dlsin lamb in reality. He is also the bitter herbs. His work includes the meal for ingestion and digestion. He is also the lamb eaten and digested for strength to make journey out of Egypt. He is the indwelling Christ to be feasted upon for energy to escape the Satanic world symbolized by Egypt.
Just saying Christ is the Passover Lamb only highlights His redemptive blood shedding for the atonment of sins. But as Paul says that the whole Passover is Christ, His indwelling, availability, enjoyment, feastability, strengthening, and nourishment is included.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI am rusty on the subject and need to re-study the matter.
Then what is it? robbie quotes Christ saying that it was passover.
Or was it another of those events stolen from pre-Christian culture that Robbie was complaining about? OK this one wasn't pagan (from the Jews point of view).
I may have even made an error.
But I do recall that the disciples had the Passover feast first. Afterwards Jesus instituted what many Christians call "the Lord's Table."
Whether it was a replacement or modification or not, of that I am in need of re-study.
Originally posted by Rajk999Whitey I could give you the information that you need to make a proper evaluation with your own powers of reason, but it would take an entire, three posts maybe for it is one of the deepest of all Christian subjects covering many different aspects of Gods standards, but since you asked and since i got some time on my hands i will start the post for you. please note it is for your information only, this is not an attempt to preach, convert, influence, manipulate, subvert etc etc it is simply information, what you do with it is up to you. but i guarantee that it will be detailed and you will gain an insight into what atonement means, why it was needed, why it could only be fulfilled by a perfect human etc etc.
Its a simple concept. The problem you are having is 'why', instead of the 'what'.
What it is, is an atonement for sin via a blood sacrifice. Read Hebrews 9. Leviticus has it in great detail. A human sacrifice was required to atone for the sin of all mankind, which is what Christ undertook to do.
Why? Its a requirement of God. End of story. I suspect you will want to know why does God require that. There is no answer.
Originally posted by jaywillmmm, i had never considered these aspects and they are very interesting indeed, however Jaywill my friend, if i may say this is my defense, I am always conscious of not going beyond the things that are written and have on numerous occasions edited text from the information that i have gathered ( i did not write any of this stuff that i am posting, it is merely cut and past, cut and paste) when i thought it went beyond the things written, or could not be substantiated by text or was in any way speculative, hopefully the information is entirely objective for it is not my intention to influence anyone, simply to provide background information to broaden our understanding, for to be sure the controversies among Christians are numerous and one must be tentative - kind regards Robbie
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Prophetic Significance. The apostle Paul, in urging Christians to live clean lives, attributes pictorial significance to the Passover. He says: “For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed.” (1Co 5:7) Here he likens Christ Jesus to the Passover lamb. John the Baptizer pointed to Jesus, saying: “See indwelling, availability, enjoyment, feastability, strengthening, and nourishment is included.[/b]