06 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadlook guys this thread is about Hinduism, there was an attempted hijack by thinkofone, the opening poster tried to bring it back on tract, I have tried to bring it back on track, it has nothing to do with Jehovahs Witnesses, it about Hinduism.
No. As I said, examples don't prove a rule.
[b]And now it's your turn to show one suicide cult that cares about the present life more than the after-life.
Did I make any such claim?
Again: I haven't mentionned JW in this thread. Do you think JW is a suicide cult?
You would you like me to clarify why you thought I talked about JW? I don't kn ...[text shortened]... ciple...?
And you directed it at Robbie who is I believe a JW (not a suicide cultist).[/b]
06 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadSo let it reamin an open question. If suicide cults care about the living members of that cult or not. We cannot ask the members themselves - afterwards...
No. As I said, examples don't prove a rule.
[b]And now it's your turn to show one suicide cult that cares about the present life more than the after-life.
Did I make any such claim?
Again: I haven't mentionned JW in this thread. Do you think JW is a suicide cult?
You would you like me to clarify why you thought I talked about JW? I don't kn ...[text shortened]... ciple...?
And you directed it at Robbie who is I believe a JW (not a suicide cultist).[/b]
Yes, I remember I replied to robbies notion that hinduism had cast system and that was unethical. That cast system isn't religious (as far I know), even if it is used by the same people living in the same geographical area. I compared this with another unethical principle of the JW cult, that however really is a part of their belif system.
The JW cult is not suicidal, but that I have never implied.
06 Jul 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRight. On that we agree.
look guys this thread is about Hinduism, there was an attempted hijack by thinkofone, the opening poster tried to bring it back on tract, I have tried to bring it back on track, it has nothing to do with Jehovahs Witnesses, it about Hinduism.
06 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasAnd there is no reason to think that they do not care about the living. At least you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
So let it reamin an open question. If suicide cults care about the living members of that cult or not. We cannot ask the members themselves - afterwards...
Yes, I remember I replied to robbies notion that hinduism had cast system and that was unethical. That cast system isn't religious (as far I know), even if it is used by the same people living in the same geographical area. I compared this with another unethical principle of the JW cult, that however really is a part of their belif system.
The JW cult is not suicidal, but that I have never implied.
So it was you that brought up the JWs and it was you that brought up suicide cults, and you are yet to give any evidence (or valid reasoning) whatsoever that either is unethical given that both believe in life after death.
06 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadTell me what you want to discuss and we take it from there. Let's begin from scratch.
And there is no reason to think that they do not care about the living. At least you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
Yes, I remember I replied to robbies notion that hinduism had cast system and that was unethical. That cast system isn't religious (as far I know), even if it is used by the same people living in the same geographical id reasoning) whatsoever that either is unethical given that both believe in life after death.
06 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou essentially made or strongly implied several assertions in your first two posts in this thread:
Tell me what you want to discuss and we take it from there. Let's begin from scratch.
1. That refusing to give a blood transfusion was unjust even in light of religious beliefs.
2. That refusing to give a blood transfusion was sign of a lack of respect for life.
3. That religions that lack a respect for life don't last very long.
Do you hold these views or not?
Do you agree with my assertions that:
a. If you believe in life after death, causing or allowing death is not necessarily always wrong, or not necessarily the most immoral possible action.
b. That in light of 1. if you have a religious belief regarding blood transfusion it may conceivably be more important than saving a life.
c. That b. does not translate into a lack of respect for life.
d. That suicide cults do not necessarily have a lack of respect for life.
e. That you have not shown that cults that do not respect life do not last very long.
06 Jul 10
2 edits
"two thousand suicides a year in australia. this figure may be an underestimation because of the way they are reported"-ZZZ radio station in Brisbane.
What is going on out there? How many of those two thousand would be suiciding because of a cult?
edit:this figure sounds too high. I just haven't got time to look it up but they're on the net(zzz.org or something)
07 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead(1) Many unjust actions are done in the name of religion. This is one.
You essentially made or strongly implied several assertions in your first two posts in this thread:
1. That refusing to give a blood transfusion was unjust even in light of religious beliefs.
2. That refusing to give a blood transfusion was sign of a lack of respect for life.
3. That religions that lack a respect for life don't last very long.
Do you ...[text shortened]... or life.
e. That you have not shown that cults that do not respect life do not last very long.
(2) To hinder to spare life is concidered wrong in most societies.
(3) People forced to commit suicide last only until they are dead. To force someone to commit suicide is lack of respect for their life. Suicidal cults tends to be small.
(a) If you start the question with "If you believe in life after death" and I don't, the rest of the question is unanswerable.
(b) Unanswerable, see (a)
(c) Unanswerable, see (b)
(d) Suicide cults have a lack of respect of the present life.
(e) If you say that I am wrong in this, then give me a counterexample.
If this were your questions, then we are all done, aren't we?
07 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasWell if you refuse to see it from a Theists point of view, there is no point discussing it at all. I know you don't believe in life after death, but by refusing to accept that theists do, you totally misunderstand them.
(a) If you start the question with "If you believe in life after death" and I don't, the rest of the question is unanswerable.
07 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou asked about my personal opinion, didn't you? Others can have theirs. I don't mind.
Well if you refuse to see it from a Theists point of view, there is no point discussing it at all. I know you don't believe in life after death, but by refusing to accept that theists do, you totally misunderstand them.
We know the correct answer the first instant after our death, not before.
07 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasIf you are that unsure, you should not be criticizing others opinions. I on the other hand do not think I have to directly experience something in order to know about it. Otherwise I might as well say the far side of the moon does not exist.
You asked about my personal opinion, didn't you? Others can have theirs. I don't mind.
We know the correct answer the first instant after our death, not before.
Because you believe life ends at death, you put loss of life at the top of your 'immorality table'. You don't seem to recognize that someone who does believe in life after death may have higher priorities.
You are wasting your time telling them they are wrong, (to refuse blood transfusions for example) unless you can convince them that there is no life after death - and that is what you must do first, or you have no argument.
07 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf we don't have respect for life, then why we bother to persecute them who takes others life? Murderers maybe just sends their victims to a better world? We don't know, we cannot know.
If you are that unsure, you should not be criticizing others opinions. I on the other hand do not think I have to directly experience something in order to know about it. Otherwise I might as well say the far side of the moon does not exist.
Because you believe life ends at death, you put loss of life at the top of your 'immorality table'. You don't seem ...[text shortened]... t there is no life after death - and that is what you must do first, or you have no argument.
Until we know, we have to think that the present life is worth the highest respect.
Even christian people believe this in general. One of the commandements say that. Suicide is condemmed by the church. So is abortion by some churches. And the general opinion don't think euthanasía and is acceptable. So we all do agree that the the respect for life is top priority. But, as I've shown, some doesn't think so.
I have my opinion. You have yours. I respect life. Don't you?
07 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo they do not. That was my point.
Even christian people believe this in general.
So we all do agree that the the respect for life is top priority. But, as I've shown, some doesn't think so.
In other words, you are contradicting yourself. Either we all agree or we don't. You cant have it both ways.
I have my opinion. You have yours. I respect life. Don't you?
Yes I respect life. But that is not the issue at all. The issue is whether or not someone who believes in life after death should be expected to respect life above all else.
07 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadOkay, we agree: The respect for life is important.
No they do not. That was my point.
[b]So we all do agree that the the respect for life is top priority. But, as I've shown, some doesn't think so.
In other words, you are contradicting yourself. Either we all agree or we don't. You cant have it both ways.
I have my opinion. You have yours. I respect life. Don't you?
Yes I respect life. ...[text shortened]... someone who believes in life after death should be expected to respect life above all else.[/b]
The majority of the christians prefer to stay alive as long as they can, and expect others to have the same preference. A few don't but that is a very small minority. This is how I think christians think in general. And on this we don't agree.
If this is not your issue, what is your issue? What *is* your opinion in this matter?