28 Oct 07
Originally posted by vistesdI suppose a statute of limitations is one way to put it. The era of grace ends once Christ returns and according to the Bible he returns to "set things right". By doing this sin is erradicated and so is suffering which is what everyone is up in arms about. It also seems to me that the Bible indicates that if Christ delays his coming that mankind would end up destroying himself had he not come when he is scheduled to come. It would appear that until that day God will allow us every oppurtunity to change coarse.
Of course, honesty compelled me to put it that way. 🙂
Equally, of course, the question arises as to what is the difference between circumstances that may allow me to act, and circumstances that may allow God to act.
Your statement that the era of grace is “fleeting” sounds an awful lot like my statement about a statute of limitations on love . . . Who sets such a statute of limitations, and why?
28 Oct 07
4 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasWell, it would make a difference if the Christ which I believed in were not the real Christ.
Well, it would make a difference if the Christ which I believed in were not the real Christ. For instance, if I believed Christ were Satan's spiritual brother, as the Mormons believe, or that Christ were an angel rather than God, as the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. But as long as that is in place, there is some wiggle room with regards to various iness ...[text shortened]... at my exegesis is far from complete. What about my Christology is messed up, in your opinion?
Artfully stated! In the good sense, I mean. 🙂
What about my Christology is messed up, in your opinion?
I’m sorry: I meant that we hadn’t discussed that enough for me to have an opinion on that. I meant to exclude it from my question. Of course, you are correct in that it is central to the question.
For me, Christianity makes little sense outside of Chalcedonian Christology. On the other hand, I have always tended toward what I think is called a “high Christology.” By that I mean—and this needs to be taken in the sense of balance—I tend toward identifying the Christ with the pre-existing Logos more than simply with what I will, with some trepidation, call the “Jesus event.” Now, an interesting thing about the opening verses of the Gospel of John is that the verb he uses for all things having come into being via the Logos is the same verb often translated as “begotten.” This seems to have led some (many?) in the Orthodox tradition to take incarnation pretty broadly, without diminishing Jesus as “unique” (which they insist is the proper meaning of monogenete, as opposed to “only begotten”*—if i haven’t got my verbs confused; I’m going from recall here. I have quoted Gregory of Nyssa often on this.
I’m only bringing this in for analogy, with no intention of super-imposing an otherwise Buddhist view on this: it is a bit like Siddhartha Gautama being uniquely the Buddha, but not the only Buddha—you are Buddha, too. Luther put it that we are all “little Christs.” I dislike that “little,” but perhaps what he intended gets lost in translation. Anglican theologian Robert Farrar Capon said something like, “Jesus is the Christ because he is a sacrament of the pre-existing Logos.”
I always have several books going at once. One of the ones I have had going for some time is John Meyendorff’s Christ in the Eastern Orthodox Church. In it, he painstakingly lays out the arguments among the monophysites, the monotheletes, the Arians and the Chalcedonians (all of which spans a long time), as the early church wrestled with all of the theological implications behind the question of what exactly the phrase “the Christ” (and Jesus as the Christ) means.
I recall just the other day swearing off this stuff, but I guess I’m really not going to. 🙂 Take the above as shifting pieces of an ongoing jigsaw puzzle. The following quote (itself taken out of context) should be seen only as another jigsaw piece:
“The world is a vast incarnation which the fall of the human race tries to contradict.” (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism, p. 219.) “Fall”, of course, is another term that needs to be defined; and the Orthodox view it somewhat differently, though not univocally, than is the tendency among those in the West who have tended to follow Augustine. Protestant theologian Paul Tillich also had an interesting take on it, in volume 2 of his Systematic Theology.
If I get the whole thing more formed in my head, perhaps we can discuss it some day . . . 🙂
* On the other hand, John is generally considered to be a relatively late Gospel, so maybe he was expressing what was already becoming a developing understanding within the churches.
________________________________________
EDIT: I know that what I just posted doesn’t say much—in a lot of words.
On the one hand, I get a bit anal about defining terms. To say that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, for example, demands that all of those terms be defined.
On the other hand, I am very partial to the likes of Dionysius the Aeropagite (Pseudo-Dionysius), whose mystical theology moves beyond all definitions. (I didn’t learn all of that stuff from the Buddhists, you know! 😉 )
28 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoI realize that it is assumed that those who turn to religion/God do so ONLY to have hopes of immortality. Even though that is perhaps why some do turn to religion, this is not the full picture. As I said before, sin is nothing more than breaking the commandment of love for your fellow man and for your God. When I turned to Christ I was given a heart that was able to love people as I had not had before. I was able to walk in love with those who did not show love towards me for the first time. This type of love does not come naturally and I would say it is supernatural in origin. The natural reaction towards people who mistreat us is to return fire. This is because we were designed for a world without sin, therefore, our love would naturally only be given to those who love us back who are not sinning against us. However, I believe that this is one of the signs of a follower of Christ that seperates those who do not know him. In a way, only loving those who love you is somewhat selfish in that you are getting something good back for your love in return. However, what of those who do not return such love, rather, they do just the opposite? Christ once asked his disciples that if you love those who love you, where is your reward? Do not sinners do the same? In other words, the reward for loving those who love you is them loving you back. However, the reward for loving those who do not love you will come your way eventually, however, it will be far greater than them simply loving you assuming they loved you back.
Dying is inherent to living. I learned this lesson a long time ago. I'm not afraid to die or to cease to exist. I think this philosophy isn't included in most people and that's why they turn to religion, but this is another subject.
[b]To say that love comes from ourselves is like saying that our life comes from ourselves
No. It's not comparable. Lo ...[text shortened]... ou afraid? Someday science will circumvent this, unfortunately it will take some millennia more.
You say that your life comes from your parents, however, where did your parents life come from? Also, without this life how is it that you could know what love is? Therefore, you could argue that love also comes from your parents as well, no?
In terms of science circumventing death, all I can say is good luck with that! In reality, what can science do for us? It can't so much as cure the common cold. In fact, one of the best interventions to "cure" our ailments was the advent of antibiodics, however, now they are becoming increasingly obsolete as these organisms are becoming increasingly resistant to them. The dream of immortality deviod of God is a pipe dream. However, even if you are right, what do we care if man becomes immortal? We will all be a worm feast by that time. Come to think of it, I am not really sure immortality in this present world would be desirable. I heard a preacher say once that this life is as close as a believer gets to hell and this life is as close to a nonbeliever gets to heaven.
28 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoSo you like the message of love and most of the philosophy of the Bible but do not understand or like other aspects of the faith? I guess you just throw out the baby with the bath water then, no? To be honest, when I came to Christ I also had some reservations about my faith. For example, Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, what was all that about? However, just as Abraham trusted God to be merciful and faithful so did I. Placing ones faith in another can be a scary proposition no doubt, but it is well worth it in the end if the other party truly loves you. I think you will find that the Bible is full of apparent contradictions, however, not all apparent contradictions are in fact true contradictions once they are studied in greater depth. At least, this has been my finding.
I can't understand half of the translations in English of the Bible. It looks like Shakespeare wrote it. But I found this
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13
As I said somewhere else, I can identify myself with most of the philosophy of the Bible. But there are too many inconsistencies there. Imagine God would isolate himself from ...[text shortened]... lieve Love would disappear? Do you believe anything would be any different during our lifetime?[/b]
As far as the Bible not making sense, from my own experience I can relate. Before I came to Christ most of it did not make sense either. Also, there are more reader friendly translations than those written in old english such as the KJV.
28 Oct 07
Originally posted by whodeyWell, I have been arguing against that view—from strictly an Christian theological position—across several threads now (and am losing track of them—but you have seen it all before, anyway). So let’s leave this one where it stands.
I suppose a statute of limitations is one way to put it. The era of grace ends once Christ returns and according to the Bible he returns to "set things right". By doing this sin is erradicated and so is suffering which is what everyone is up in arms about. It also seems to me that the Bible indicates that if Christ delays his coming that mankind would end ...[text shortened]... me. It would appear that until that day God will allow us every oppurtunity to change coarse.
28 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI'm sorry, I don't have any evidence besides the Bible, except the evidence of regeneration in my own life. I was converted on the evidence of the words of Christ - I trusted Christ to be Who He said He was. Since that day I have grown in blessings and in grace, overcoming habitual sins and anxieties in order to live boldly for the Lord. As I've described to vistesd before, I know of no campaign of self-delusion in my life of faith; far from it. My life is marked by joy, peace, love, confidence in the Lord's power, and submission to His authority. I know the Spirit of the Lord intimately and would die for Christ were that the Lord's will. This life is far superior to that which I lived in my own power, following the desires of my flesh.
[b]That means our mind will be completely altered, and everything we understand as needs, desires and will, will also be profoundly altered.
That's the whole point, seri. 🙂
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).
"And do not be conforme ...[text shortened]... ire some type of intellectual enlightenment for salvation, but trust instead.[/b]
The power of the mind is fabulous, and the things we can do when we have faith and truly believe in something are yet to be fully understood by science. That can be seen independently of religion. You directed your mind to Christianity with excellent results, I find that great. For me, it's only an altered state of mind. Doesn't make anything any more true or false, right or wrong. I personally can't leave my reasoning and take such a huge leap of faith. I'm quite happy and my life turned a lot better when I admitted that we can't control what happens in the world, that death is inevitable and I'm the owner of my life and destiny.
There is no doubt that the Gospel of Christ will be unsatisfying to your intellect. In a way, it is meant to be so, since it is the counteracting of the effects of The Tree of Knowledge. That's why God doesn't require some type of intellectual enlightenment for salvation, but trust instead.
From the way you say, it seems like God wants people ignorant. Ignorance leads to happiness. That goes quite a bit against human curious nature.
28 Oct 07
Originally posted by whodeyLove is possible without turning to Christ. Christianity has no rights on this one. If you only found love after you turned to religion, let me tell there are other ways. You only needed an inner reflection of your self, not turn to any religion.
I realize that it is assumed that those who turn to religion/God do so ONLY to have hopes of immortality. Even though that is perhaps why some do turn to religion, this is not the full picture. As I said before, sin is nothing more than breaking the commandment of love for your fellow man and for your God. When I turned to Christ I was given a heart that w ...[text shortened]... s close as a believer gets to hell and this life is as close to a nonbeliever gets to heaven.
So, you can get love, peace, respect, moral from the natural, non religious world. Religion is only different when it promises life after death and an absolute justification for moral, justice and creation.
No one knows for sure where life came from the first place. There are theories, but I don't want to cause a new discussion on this theme. Ultimately, I don't need to know where life came from. I just care that I am alive and thinking now. About love, it was taught by example from all the people I knew during lifetime. From reading, experiencing, looking, etc. Love evolves during our lifetime, and is not something absolute and immutable.
Science allowed us to debate in this thread. Allowed men to live 100+ years, cure so many diseases, made life so much easier. And science in only beginning. Someday we will be immortals and be able to achieve things no one wonders nowadays. Just give it the time.
28 Oct 07
Originally posted by whodeyIf you are willing to, you can always interpret your reading to adapt to your reason. The point is you will lose something by doing so: the independent thinking, the logical-deductive reasoning, the criticize spirit.
So you like the message of love and most of the philosophy of the Bible but do not understand or like other aspects of the faith? I guess you just throw out the baby with the bath water then, no? To be honest, when I came to Christ I also had some reservations about my faith. For example, Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, what was all that about? ...[text shortened]... , there are more reader friendly translations than those written in old english such as the KJV.
What you say you gain, I say you gain more by following Buddhism.
28 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoYou initial hypothesis is not correct, that is why all what followes is not correct.
Let me make my point.
Someone who does not acknowledge God, is going to Hell (some even say if he's not baptized).
Now we have 2 hypothesis: either redemption can happen in Hell, and the soul can go to Heaven, or... it can't.
1) If redemption can happen in Hell, then whatever we do here in Earth doesn't really matter, because soul's life is just going to , I don't know, but almost positively it's not the one described in your Holy Bible.
You assume that the rules we human use to judge our behaviour could be applied to GOD who created humans and their rules. This is not correct, and doesn't make any sense. GOD is not a man. He gave you your life, and he is free to take it back and do what ever he want with it.
Let me ask you a question to make my point clear, do you consider a loin who captured a rabbit and ate a murderer?
Note: I'm a muslim so I don't belive that GOD loves every one. Love doesn't love those who don't belive in him!!!!!
EDIT: I didn't read all what is written here, but what I read is enough.
28 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ahosyneyOk. So God is unjust and according to our human parameters and values, and could be considerer a dictator according to those parameters.
You initial hypothesis is not correct, that is why all what followes is not correct.
You assume that the rules we human use to judge our behaviour could be applied to GOD who created humans and their rules. This is not correct, and doesn't make any sense. GOD is not a man. He gave you your life, and he is free to take it back and do what ever he want wi ve in him!!!!!
EDIT: I didn't read all what is written here, but what I read is enough.
You say God is God, so we shouldn't dare to try to understand his reasoning. That's fair enough for a believer, I guess. Not for me.
I find Islam a bit more reasonable and with less artifacts then Christianity. But the submission philosophy just doesn't make sense to me. I could ask a lot of questions, but they could all be answered with "you can never understand God, you are just too small".
I guess debate dies at its origin.
28 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoThe power of the mind is fabulous, and the things we can do when we have faith and truly believe in something are yet to be fully understood by science. That can be seen independently of religion. You directed your mind to Christianity with excellent results, I find that great. For me, it's only an altered state of mind. Doesn't make anything any more true or false, right or wrong. I personally can't leave my reasoning and take such a huge leap of faith. I'm quite happy and my life turned a lot better when I admitted that we can't control what happens in the world, that death is inevitable and I'm the owner of my life and destiny.
I'm sorry, I don't have any evidence besides the Bible, except the evidence of regeneration in my own life. I was converted on the evidence of the words of Christ - I trusted Christ to be Who He said He was. Since that day I have grown in blessings and in grace, overcoming habitual sins and anxieties in order to live boldly for the Lord. As I've descr Ignorance leads to happiness. That goes quite a bit against human curious nature.
Christ's words and deeds are in direct opposition to your world-view that the dead cannot rise and that miracles do not happen. Christ claimed to be God and within one generation of His death and resurrection all of the miracles He performed had been recorded for posterity. His ministry is the most reliably preserved event from antiquity. In the face of such a radical challenge to your world-view, are you even slightly curious as to its legitimacy?
Whether you believe it or not, God's power is real. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and the same power which raised Him from the dead works in those who believe in Jesus today.
From the way you say, it seems like God wants people ignorant. Ignorance leads to happiness. That goes quite a bit against human curious nature.
You have to trust God in order not to be ignorant of the Truth. God is not anti-scholarship. What He is referring to is the attitude of mind which closes one off from the Truth, namely, being wise in one's own eyes. That is, trusting oneself instead of God. My mother finished her dissertation a few years ago and is now a professor at the University of South Dakota, yet she trusts the Lord. It is not being learned which God takes issue with, rather it is being wise in one's own eyes - which precludes trust - which He takes issue with.
28 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoYou say God is God, so we shouldn't dare to try to understand his reasoning.
Ok. So God is unjust and according to our human parameters and values, and could be considerer a dictator according to those parameters.
You say God is God, so we shouldn't dare to try to understand his reasoning. That's fair enough for a believer, I guess. Not for me.
I find Islam a bit more reasonable and with less artifacts then Christianity. But the s "you can never understand God, you are just too small".
I guess debate dies at its origin.
I didn't say that.
I could ask a lot of questions, but they could all be answered with "you can never understand God, you are just too small".
NO, and I didn't say that too, In Islam we don't do that, and I will never answer you this answer, and I never did, review my posts here if you like to see if I didn't that before. Islamic faith is very clear, and it is all based on reason, if you didn't understand it that is because you didn't try to read from the beginning.
----
The idea is simple, GOD create man for only one purpose, to worship him, if you didn't fullfill you purpose then you desirve hell. Simple!!!
If have no problem to answer your questions, if I can, but I don't like you to say something I didn't say.
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Ok. So God is unjust and according to our human parameters and values, and could be considerer a dictator according to those parameters.
Most of atheist I see here deny a simple fact, that GOD (at least the one I belive in) is the source of life, he give you every thing, even the mind that you use to deny him. Don't you think this is enough reason to understand what GOD did for you and if you can compare him to any human? I mean which of those dicators you compare with give you your life???!!!!
28 Oct 07
3 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasChrist's words and deeds are in direct opposition to your world-view that the dead cannot rise and that miracles do not happen. Christ claimed to be God and within one generation of His death and resurrection all of the miracles He performed had been recorded for posterity. His ministry is the most reliably preserved event from antiquity. In the face of such a radical challenge to your world-view, are you even slightly curious as to its legitimacy?
[b]The power of the mind is fabulous, and the things we can do when we have faith and truly believe in something are yet to be fully understood by science. That can be seen independently of religion. You directed your mind to Christianity with excellent results, I find that great. For me, it's only an altered state of mind. Doesn't make anything any more t is being wise in one's own eyes - which precludes trust - which He takes issue with.
Whether you believe it or not, God's power is real. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and the same power which raised Him from the dead works in those who believe in Jesus today.
[/b]
I frontally question the resurrection of Jesus plus his miracles. Maybe he was just very though and didn't die in the cross, and people found him still alive after 3 days, maybe they made up that story, I don't know. I know something written 2k yrs ago can't be trusted for 100% sure. There are many plausible possibilities besides the literal text written in the Bible. I find extremely hard that story to be 100% accurate. You, by the other hand are 100% of it's veracity just because it's written in the Bible. I think I'm not being the radical one here.
28 Oct 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyIt this sentence better?
[b]You say God is God, so we shouldn't dare to try to understand his reasoning.
I didn't say that.
I could ask a lot of questions, but they could all be answered with "you can never understand God, you are just too small".
NO, and I didn't say that too, In Islam we don't do that, and I will never answer you this answer, and I never did, ...[text shortened]... ny human? I mean which of those dicators you compare with give you your life???!!!![/b]
God is God, so it's normal we can't comprehend his reasoning, although we can try do to it?
NO, and I didn't say that too, In Islam we don't do that, and I will never answer you this answer, and I never did, review my posts here if you like to see if I didn't that before. Islamic faith is very clear, and it is all based on reason, if you didn't understand it that is because you didn't try to read from the beginning.
Sometimes I make statements just waiting for them to be corrected. OK... what legitimates Koran? What guarantees you Muhammad has enlightened by God? Why do some follow Muhammad's life and teachings (most of it was islamization, by force, historians say).
Why would an all powerful God create men with a free will only to worship him? That God has a huge ego, don't you think? How is Hell in Islam? Is there the concept of redemption? Even after going to Hell? Admitting that point of view, our life is ALWAYS miserable, we are nothing more then God's tools to worship him, that's very sad.
Most of atheist I see here deny a simple fact, that GOD (at least the one I belive in) is the source of life, he give you every thing, even the mind that you use to deny him. Don't you think this is enough reason to understand what GOD did for you and if you can compare him to any human? I mean which of those dicators you compare with give you your life???!!!![/b]
That's your belief. Do you ever question it? Isn't it possible a world without God? What do you think a God would prefer? A submitting sheep or a questioning one?