Happy 4rth of July Samuel Adams style!!

Originally posted by whodey
What indications would convince you that the morality of any given society is eroding?

I don't know what it would take. But so far I have nothing.

Is it even measurable in your opinion?
Not easily.

From my own vantage point, the morality of the society in which I live has changed significantly. For example, the attitude about casual sex as being OK has increased, so has the attitude regarding abortion as being OK.
So we are talking about attitudes towards sex. Thats hardly the same type of morality as knowing right from wrong. It think they should be discussed separately as they are two very different types of morality - almost worthy of a different word.
I too would agree that attitudes regarding discussing sex openly have changed dramatically during my life time, but I am less convinced that actual activity has. In Zambia, we had very strong censorship on tv when I was young and discussing sex was largely taboo. Yet immorality has always been rife, and it is part of the 'tradition' that men have extramarital affairs.
Here in SA, I have met women my age who had children before they were married, and the number of mixed race people says a lot about the morality of the people here in the past (who were banned from legal mixed race relationships for a large part of this countries history).
Inquire about family history in this city and most people don't know and often don't want to know.
Our president (SA) is a polygamist who has been in court on rape charges. He admitted to having sex with someone not his wife. He is not young. Whatever morals he is relying on, are not particularly modern. The polygamy he claims is traditional.

In addition, the church attendance rates have drop significantly as well as the culture has been increasingly secularized.
So not going to Church is immoral in your opinion? Teachers should teach the children to go to Church? I can see why your kind of morals is not allowed in Schools.

I have always heard that Rome fell in part to its moral decline. Would you not agree?
I do not know Romes history, but I sincerely doubt that that was the case.

In fact, could this not happen in our own culture?
From not going to Church? Of course not? From having too much sex? No, I don't think so. From saying OK to abortions? I believe the evidence is that legalizing abortion reduced crime rates.
Or are you now talking about some other sort of morals?

Originally posted by whodey
What indications would convince you that the morality of any given society is eroding? Is it even measurable in your opinion?

From my own vantage point, the morality of the society in which I live has changed significantly. For example, the attitude about casual sex as being OK has increased, so has the attitude regarding abortion as being OK. In additi ...[text shortened]... to its moral decline. Would you not agree? In fact, could this not happen in our own culture?

I dispute your allegation that morality is in decline. I don't buy it. As a society we have made enormous progress against racism, sexism and homophobia within the last 50 years. As for changing sexual mores, I don't see that as being necessarily for the worse. And declining church attendance is a positive, not a negative.

Originally posted by rwingett
I dispute your allegation that morality is in decline. I don't buy it. As a society we have made enormous progress against racism, sexism and homophobia within the last 50 years. As for changing sexual mores, I don't see that as being necessarily for the worse. And declining church attendance is a positive, not a negative.

I would agree. You may get some pockets of society that are a bit backwards, but with the advent of the internet, and freer communication in general, the general trend is towards what I what consider "normal".

Originally posted by twhitehead

From my own vantage point, the morality of the society in which I live has changed significantly. For example, the attitude about casual sex as being OK has increased, so has the attitude regarding abortion as being OK.
So we are talking about attitudes towards sex. Thats hardly the same type of morality as knowing right from wrong. It think they ...[text shortened]... ver morals he is relying on, are not particularly modern. The polygamy he claims is traditional.

In terms of morality, we all have an innate sense of right verses wrong. Typically, this can be summed up with the Golden Rule championed by Christ which is to do unto others you would have them do to you.

Having said that, people still violate this rule using various coping mechanisms. For example, the slaves of the deep south were dehuminized by calling them "monkeymen", thus they could trat them like live stock. In Nazi Germany the Jews were declared vermon and less than human so they could then be exterminated. In the MIddle East some are declared "infidels" and the unborn declared a fetus etc. This intellectual gymnastics need to be implemented because there is a price to pay psychologically for this inner voice called a conscience going unanswerd and completly ignored. However, as we can see there are various intellectual gymnastics to help rid ourselves of this nagging inner voice. The voice can then be answered, even if it means lying to that voice easing the psychological toll on oneself.

Of course, this inner voice regarding sexual practice is more readily railroaded. After all, who is being hurt if you have two consensual adults engaged in sexual behavior? This quesiton is less apparent than if someone were trying to kill or steal from another human being, but I think the arguments are there nonetheless. For example, the social foundation of society is the family unit. So what happens when this family unit is destroyted? Women today who have children out of wedlock are typically poverty striken. STD's run rampant in a promiscuous society etc. Polygamy, however, is an interesting dilemma. After all, it was routinely practiced in the ancient Biblical world and held the family unit intact even though the modern Christian world does not embrace such unions.

Originally posted by rwingett
I dispute your allegation that morality is in decline. I don't buy it. As a society we have made enormous progress against racism, sexism and homophobia within the last 50 years. As for changing sexual mores, I don't see that as being necessarily for the worse. And declining church attendance is a positive, not a negative.

Don't get me wrong, there have been some progression in terms of issues such as racism, but what about the "Big Picture"? With the family unit being continually erroded, what has been the price on society? We see more and more disinfranchised people within society who are more dependent upon government than upon surviving as a family unit. The results are obvious. Just compare any Amish community to that of the average American. The Amish are self sustaining. In fact, they have been able to opt out of Obamacare because they help pay off each others debts as the need arises. Or if one of them needs a barn the entire community pitches in to build it etc. Compare that to the average American who is drowning in debt and is being run by a government overextended and doomed to eventaul insolvensy. Instead of children being raised by family members they are raised by day care workers who have no emotional bonds to the children and vice versa. Your utopia of sexual promissivness which is aided abeded by nonjudgemental Big Brother is not all that it is cracked up to be if you ask me.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In addition, the church attendance rates have drop significantly as well as the culture has been increasingly secularized.
So not going to Church is immoral in your opinion? Teachers should teach the children to go to Church? I can see why your kind of morals is not allowed in Schools.

Our morality is helped shaped by authority figures. So what is indicated if one of these authority figures is on the decline? It is either an errosion of the moral authority of the church, the errosion of the morals within the society, or a combination of both. I would say it is the latter.

Originally posted by twhitehead
[I have always heard that Rome fell in part to its moral decline. Would you not agree?
I do not know Romes history, but I sincerely doubt that that was the case.

[

Well do some investigating and ask the question as to why the Eastern Roman Empire, which was far more Christian, surpassed its Western rival. Of course, I'm not suggesting that the only reason Rome fell was rooted in morality, but I think it has a far greater impact than what we think.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
The quote says MANNERS are at the heart etc, not morality.

We should probably teach reading comprehension.

Originally posted by whodey
Well do some investigating and ask the question as to why the Eastern Roman Empire, which was far more Christian, surpassed its Western rival. Of course, I'm not suggesting that the only reason Rome fell was rooted in morality, but I think it has a far greater impact than what we think.

I have studied the decline and fall of Rome, and to my recollection there was little difference in the quantity or quality of christianity between East and West at the time of the failure of the Western Empire. Care to post some references for this theory of yours?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I have studied the decline and fall of Rome, and to my recollection there was little difference in the quantity or quality of christianity between East and West at the time of the failure of the Western Empire. Care to post some references for this theory of yours?

The fall of Rome, as the fall of other empires, always for for the same reason-it is built on a false premise.

Originally posted by whodey
In terms of morality, we all have an innate sense of right verses wrong. Typically, this can be summed up with the Golden Rule championed by Christ which is to do unto others you would have them do to you.

Which is why I separate sexuality as it is largely to do with customs and not to do with harming others. Though cheating on a 'loved one' is in both categories, as is child abuse, rape and similar crimes.

For example, the slaves of the deep south were dehuminized by calling them "monkeymen", thus they could trat them like live stock.
Notice how all your main examples came from History? No present society examples? Yet you claim morals are in decline?

Of course, this inner voice regarding sexual practice is more readily railroaded. After all, who is being hurt if you have two consensual adults engaged in sexual behavior? This quesiton is less apparent than if someone were trying to kill or steal from another human being, but I think the arguments are there nonetheless.
Only if you want to find them. In reality, sexual practice morals are not the same as 'don't harm others' morals. They are quite distinct.

Women today who have children out of wedlock are typically poverty striken.
Are they? Not where I come from. Besides, having children out of wedlock is hardly the height of sexual immorality. I know plenty of married people who have affairs without having children. I consider affairs to be far worse morally than sex outside marriage because with an affair you are directly hurting someone.

STD's run rampant in a promiscuous society etc.
So are they on the increase? If your claims are correct, then they should be.

Polygamy, however, is an interesting dilemma. After all, it was routinely practiced in the ancient Biblical world and held the family unit intact even though the modern Christian world does not embrace such unions.
Yes. Thats the problem when you base your morals on an ancient book. You are stuck with the good the bad and the ugly and are left trying to justify it all.

As for family units, a large percentage of the people I know in Cape Town are single parents. But as far as I know, so were many of their parents and their parents parents. Also, I am not convinced a society that forces couples to stay in bad marriages is better than a society that allows divorce. In fact I would be a lot stronger and say I unequivocally support divorce.

Originally posted by whodey
... but I think it has a far greater impact than what we think.

In other words, you want it to be true but you have no evidence.

Originally posted by whodey
Compare that to the average American who is drowning in debt and is being run by a government overextended and doomed to eventaul insolvensy.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with morals or the family unit. It has to do with the easy credit lifestyle made available in the US. Its hardly unique to the US either, its just easier to get deeper in over there.
In Zambia, you couldn't get much credit, those who couldn't think ahead simply remained broke all their lives. Thats started to change recently with an improving economy, and some people are learning the hard way.
Here in SA there is quite strict government regulation on lending which I think has helped a lot, but of course some people still manage to over do it.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
The fall of Rome, as the fall of other empires, always for for the same reason-it is built on a false premise.

That doesn't sound quite right to me - what premise do you mean K?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
That doesn't sound quite right to me - what premise do you mean K?

Hate to sound like vishva here, but all societies built on false, oppresive hirearchies that are not in tune with basic universal laws and are bound to fall sooner or later. Morality is just one of these factors. Subjagation of women. Slavery(in all its forms).
Basically if its an "upside down pyramid" , it wont stand. Any clearer?

For example we've had different ages. Bronze age, Stone age,etc.
What will the days we live in now be called? I reckon the "oil age"😛

(I admit I haven't explained myself very well here. The words aint flowing this mornin.🙂 )