"Greater love.... "

Originally posted by Rank outsider

To be clear, my questions only relate to hell as a place of eternal torture which can only be avoided by accepting Jesus Christ as a saviour. My questions are:

First my thoughts on "a place of eternal torture" -

You have heard perhaps of Sing Sing Prison. It is probably a terrible place to be. Now it is logical to me that because of various levels of crime there are various levels of punishment in Sing Sing Prison. Maybe there are really horrible places there along with less horrible places depending on the crime committed.

But a wise government would want that nobody go there, regardless. They might inform potential criminals of the worst places in Sing Sing Prison. It would not serve the purpose of keeping everyone out of there to advertise that some sections are better and some sections are worst. Rather for the purpose of keeping people out of Sing Sing altogether perhaps the worst places in it are set forth as a warning.

In the eternal perdition, the lake of fire it probably serves God's purpose to warn of the worst possible consequences of eternal separation from God. Why would He hold out a hope that some places may not be as bad as others? The fate of eternal separation from Him is rather to be avoided regardless.

If God wants to warn us that this state is to be avoided altogether, it may be that it is not described as degrees of discomfort but as its worst possible outcome. Separation from God forever is something we should want to avoid altogether. And it is God's responsibility to do His utmost to warn us of that.

1 Why is it necessary for hell to be place of torture for all eternity?

It only makes sense of God is the ultimate righteousness above which, besides which, other than there is no possible higher justice. IF God is indeed the highest rightness than it is His responsibility to inform all rebels that revolt against Him cannot cause one to win. You must lose.

Eternal punishment allows you to reject and rebel against the highest righteousness. But you cannot do so and win. You must lose.

I have thought long and hard on this for most of my life. And eternal punishment only makes sense if the Eternal God is that ultimate Being of love, righteousness, holiness and goodness.

There is no higher court or umpire of appeal. That is impossible. So if you rebel forever you will lose forever.

Since the consequences of perpetual revolt against God are so terrible I spend at least equal time contemplating all that God has done that we may be saved from such a foolish choice as to not be reconciled to God.

Your questions are not so simple that a short post in this chatting style does them justice.

But you should realize that the Person who spoke the most powerful words of love, patience, kindness, forgiveness and forbearance, is the same Person who spoke such words of dreadful warning about the consequence not being reconciled to God.

Out of the same mouth came both speakings. We owe to Jesus Christ our hearing of the grandest words of love and forgiveness. And we owe to the same Jesus Christ the most frightful words of warning.

I also consider that a totally just and thorough God can also be absolute. Man in his unbelief assumes God will be unfair. Man assumes in his unbelief that God will overlook some contributing factors. Man assumes in his unbelief that God needs to be educated on fairness. Man assumes in his unbelief that God does not realize this or that or the other factor should be taken into account.

These are all man's assumptions that God is not good at being God. As I read through the Bible I gain confidence that nothing will be overlooked by the Judge of all the earth.

In short the finality of God's judgment is not in a unfair vacuum. The finality of God's judgment is matched by the omniscience of His infallible knowledge of every conceivable detail. He who knows the behavior of every atomic particle in the whole universe will have no detail escape His discernment.

I just believe He is absolute in both justice and knowledge. This kind of understanding I get from actually reading the Bible through carefully.

For example, the book of Jonah is a book pretty much dedicated to the fact that God is reluctant to have to judge a nation. He scolds the disappointed prophet who wanted Israel's enemies to be judged -

"And Jehovah said, You had pity on the tree that you did not labor for nor cause to grow ... And I, should I not have pity on Ninevah, the great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot discern between their right hand and their left, ...?" (Jonah 3:10b,11)

In His perfect knowledge God was aware of the count of people who should be exempted from punishment. His knowledge was complete.

So I believe that the absolute final judgment of God is matched by the absolute infallible knowledge down to the very count, of people who merit particular kind of forebearance.

Our unbelief assumes incompetence on God's part. But the case really is that the Judge of all the world cannot do unjustly.

I'll stop here.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Did I? When?
And I notice that you have no interest in supporting any of your claims. You go around saying that the media is suppressing certain things, but when asked for them, you remain silent. I think your blaming the media is thus unjustified.
Where are these formerly blind people who can now see, why does prayer only work for blindness and not AIDS or amputees?

I don't have to prove anything, I offered my opinions and you can do what you like, no response necessary.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't have to prove anything, I offered my opinions and you can do what you like, no response necessary.

Yes, you do not have to prove anything. But I will continue to believe that your opinions are wrong, and that you suspect that they are wrong as you are unwilling to discuss them.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I think we have conversed once or twice. I have no problem with length if the answers are relevant.

To be clear, my questions only relate to hell as a place of eternal torture which can only be avoided by accepting Jesus Christ as a saviour. My questions are:

1 Why is it necessary for hell to be place of torture for all eternity?

2 Given t swers are to the point, I will read and consider them fully, and with as open mind as possible.

2 Given that losing out on a chance of eternal paradise is a pretty big price to pay for not accepting Jesus as a saviour, why it is necessary for God to do anything beyond allowing individuals who do not acccept him to die?

The last book of the Bible, Revelation, has its closing scene of the judgment this way -

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

I would make these observations. (And I could be wrong).

1.) Though John 3:16 says that whosoever believes into the Son of God will not perish but have eternal life, the last word is that whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15)

Do I know ALL the ways a person's name can be written in the book of life ? I don't think I am given this information. Certainly those who believe into the Son of God have their names written in the book of life and enjoy eternal life.

Might there be some unknown other way someone's name is written in the Lamb's book of life ? Maybe.

2.) Does what I write above negate the famous saying of Jesus in John 14:6 that no one comes to the Father except through Him [Jesus] ?

Maybe not. "Him" is a living Person - the Son of God. It could be understood that if anyone comes to the Father in any way it will only have been because of Him - Jesus the living Person.

In other words "No one comes to the Father except through Me" probably means without His decision no one comes to the Father.

And maybe I am not given exhaustive details about how one's name might be written in "the book of life"

3.) Believers and unbelievers alike want to insure themselves of a belief which can be totally systematized and 100% consistent.

But I have to submit myself to the possibility that God has told me so only so much as He wants me to know now. Probably there are many details of His plan that are withheld from my knowing at this time.

The important thing then is how does one respond to the Gospel when one comes to know the Gospel.

I just watched a couple hours of videos about tragic cases of people being threatened with damnation under a false doctrine. Maybe if I present "Jesus" to you as my false imaginary religious figure, rejecting that is not rejecting Jesus.

No one comes to the Father except through the Son is probably not "No one comes to the Father except through anyone's religious false teaching saying something about Jesus no matter how wrong, no matter how perverted.

3 Given that most people retain the same religion that they are brought up in, why is it fair to stack the odds in favour of people raised in the Christian faith?

I think this is just human opinion based on some limited perception.

Early in the Bible we see the "father of faith" Abraham, challenging God that God would be just and fair in His judgment of the cities of Sodom and Gamorrah (Genesis 18).

Abraham presses and presses God again and again to assure himself and God that God will not be unjust. This is in the first book of the Bible. Abraham poses the question -

"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You! Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ?" (Gen. 18:25)

An unjust and incompetent Supreme Being, to me, does not make sense. If we as human beings have a sense of unequal treatment to which our Creator needs education, HOW could the Cause be greater than the effect ?

How could God bestow on His creatures a greater sense of justice than He Himself was capable of ? The effect should not be greater than the cause. And God could not give what was not in Him to give.

So I rather believe that His keen sense of justice is infinitely higher than our own - "Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?"

At the same time, there WILL be a last judgment of all mankind.

Christ died to make atonement for all the sins of the world in every age for all time. One all-compassing payment to the Perfect, like a blank check upon which one can write any amount of funds.

God does not ask us to grovel or beg. He commands us to believe in the Son of God. Strictly speaking He doesn't say you must believe in hell. He says you must believe in the Lord Jesus.

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Notice that it only says you must believe that Jesus is Lord.
There is no demand to believe in hell or Noah's Flood or six days of creation or anything much else.

You will be saved if you obey to believe in the Lord Jesus and that God has raised Him from the dead.

Now to believe that God has raised Him from the dead may mean that and that you believe that Jesus the Lord is living. Could it not be the case that many who are no so clear about the details of the Gospels simply hear about Jesus the Lord and believe that He is the living Lord ?

My opinion is that it is not that hard for a man then to be saved. If you are in doubt confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that the Lord has been raised from the dead. The Apostle Paul's direct teaching is that you will be saved.

Originally posted by sonship

2 Given that losing out on a chance of eternal paradise is a pretty big price to pay for not accepting Jesus as a saviour, why it is necessary for God to do anything beyond allowing individuals who do not acccept him to die?

The last book of the Bible, [b]Revelation, has its closing scene of the judgment this way -

"And if an ...[text shortened]... dead. The Apostle Paul's direct teaching is that you will be saved.

Just to say that I am away this weekend and only have access to an IPhone, which makes detailed responses difficult. I will respond to your posts next week.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
What does this have to do with the OP?

It might be off the subject of the OP.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, you do not have to prove anything. But I will continue to believe that your opinions are wrong, and that you suspect that they are wrong as you are unwilling to discuss them.

The reason I say this is because of the "proof" you require. I have known of people healed of AIDS, blind people who now see, etc. What do you want, their names and addresses?
That is why I say I offer my opinion. I assume with your background as an unbeliever you want proof before you believe. But even if the person were to contact you in some way, I submit you would still not believe.
Jesus said as much.
Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
NIV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The reason I say this is because of the "proof" you require. I have known of people healed of AIDS, blind people who now see, etc. What do you want, their names and addresses?

I want two things.
1. Some sort of evidence that you are telling the truth. Currently all I have is your word for it, and that doesn't count for much. In addition you claim such things are covered up by the media. Is it also covered up by doctors and scientists or do they not get involved in such miracles? Why have I heard many many times that AIDS is incurable?
2. I want you to explain why people in my country are dying of AIDS and why you think you are not guilty of gross negligence for letting them die.

That is why I say I offer my opinion. I assume with your background as an unbeliever you want proof before you believe.
You don't need proof before you believe? You believe anything some random guy on the internet says? Sorry, but I just don't believe you. I think that even you as a believer would not accept a claim of miraculous healing made by someone claiming the invisible pink unicorn did it, just based on a post in this forum.

But even if the person were to contact you in some way, I submit you would still not believe.
Jesus said as much.
Luke 16:31
So why did you bother telling us? Why are you complaining that the media doesn't cover it? After all, you are convinced that nobody but a believer will accept it as fact. But why should a believer take your word for it? Are you known for your infallibility? Or do believers belief any old nonsense?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I want two things.
1. Some sort of evidence that you are telling the truth. Currently all I have is your word for it, and that doesn't count for much. In addition you claim such things are covered up by the media. Is it also covered up by doctors and scientists or do they not get involved in such miracles? Why have I heard many many times that AIDS is in ...[text shortened]... word for it? Are you known for your infallibility? Or do believers belief any old nonsense?

1.I have no evidence unless you want to come here to NY.
I never said anyone covered anything up, you said that. The bible says the truth is suppressed.
Most people believe AIDS is incurable, but to God, nothing is impossible.
Search "Andrew Wommack", visit one of his meetings and you will see all sorts of healing by the power of Jesus Christ.
2. See above. It is my fault? Tell me how it is my fault people in your country are dying.
3. I didn't need proof before I believed what God says, just renewing my mind to what the bible says. Jesus said believe him then you will see.
4. Why did I bother telling my opinion? Because even though you do not believe, some will.
Your heart is cold and unwilling to come to Jesus, so you suffer in the misery of your own mind and will not come to the truth and be born again nor healed.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I want two things.
1. Some sort of evidence that you are telling the truth. Currently all I have is your word for it, and that doesn't count for much. In addition you claim such things are covered up by the media. Is it also covered up by doctors and scientists or do they not get involved in such miracles? Why have I heard many many times that AIDS is in word for it? Are you known for your infallibility? Or do believers belief any old nonsense?

Answers:
1. Doctors have reported healings they could not explain. Some people would call that a miracle. Some people would say it is a lack of knowledge by the Doctors. Lack of knowledge as to how to cure AIDS makes some say AIDS is incurable.

2. People in your country mainly get AIDS through unprotected sex. They don't believe us when we tell them the truth. Why would you think it is our responsibility to force them to do otherwise?

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
(Hosea 4:6 NKJV)

The Instructor

Thank you sonship. As promised here are my thoughts. I am going to provide these piecemeal in separate posts.

First my thoughts.......If God wants to warn us that this state is to be avoided altogether, it may be that it is not described as degrees of discomfort but as its worst possible outcome. Separation from God forever is something we should want to avoid altogether. And it is God's responsibility to do His utmost to warn us of that.

If your view is that there are degrees of hell, then to some extent you have already departed from the premise which formed the basis of my enquiry.

And if your view is that, for the non-Christian who lives a moral life and sacrifices his life to save a friend, there is a comfortable place where they can spend eternity in 'hell' without suffering anything that may be regarded as torture, then the whole premise of what I stated does not apply.

We therefore do not need to discuss the issue any further.

However, on the understanding that, for this non-Christian, hell will still be a very unpleasant place, I will continue with my response.

I asked “Why is it necessary for hell to be place of torture for all eternity?”

It only makes sense of God if the ultimate righteousness above which, besides which, other than there is no possible higher justice.

It makes no such sense. Why does being the ultimate form of justice make it legitimate to send non-Christians to hell for eternity as opposed to just allowing them to die?

If God is indeed the highest rightness than it is His responsibility to inform all rebels that revolt against Him cannot cause one to win. You must lose.

You don’t ‘win’ if you are allowed to die and fail to obtain a place in eternal paradise. You do not address why eternal torture is necessary.

Eternal punishment allows you to reject and rebel against the highest righteousness.

Sorry, this simply makes no sense. However can a punishment ‘allow you’ to do anything.

We do not say ‘The death penalty in the USA allows people to commit murder’.

And eternal punishment only makes sense if the Eternal God is that ultimate Being of love, righteousness, holiness and goodness.

Saying the same thing twice does not make it any more convincing. And adds unnecessary length. Why does being ultimately good justify punishing non-Christians for all eternity?

There is no higher court or umpire of appeal. That is impossible. So if you rebel forever you will lose forever.

Another repetition of the same statement. You can lose forever by simply dying and not obtaining eternal paradise. You don’t address this point.

Since the consequences of perpetual revolt against God are so terrible I spend at least equal time contemplating all that God has done that we may be saved from such a foolish choice as to not be reconciled to God……

Sorry, this is simply irrelevant. I did not enquire about whether or not God has offered us a way out, what he has done for us, whether he is otherwise loving etc. I asked why it is necessary to impose hell on people who do not believe in him.

You have not answered this point, or even attempted to address it. You want to talk about all sorts of other justifications of God’s behaviour.

I also consider that a totally just and thorough God can also be absolute. Man in his unbelief assumes God will be unfair. Man assumes in his unbelief that God will overlook some contributing factors. Man assumes in his unbelief that God needs to be educated on fairness. Man assumes in his unbelief that God does not realize this or that or the other factor should be taken into account.

I make no assumptions about God’s fairness. What I have said is that, if you believe that God sends good non-Christians to hell to be tormented for all eternity, as opposed to just letting them die, then God as you perceive him is, as a matter of fact, unfair and cruel.

Nothing you have said remotely moves me from this position.

If your view is that there are degrees of hell, then to some extent you have already departed from the premise which formed the basis of my enquiry.

The Bible suggests to me justice is dispensed by God as the Judge deems appropriate -

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)

This suggests to me judgment according to works. And other passages suggest so. For example Matthew 10:15 - [b]"Truly I say to you, It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Comp. Matthew 11:23,24).

The condemned are cast into the lake of fire because their names are not written in the book of life (Rev. 20:15) But they are judged according to what was written in the scrolls concerning their works (20:13)

And if your view is that, for the non-Christian who lives a moral life and sacrifices his life to save a friend, there is a comfortable place where they can spend eternity in 'hell' without suffering anything that may be regarded as torture, then the whole premise of what I stated does not apply.

I didn't say that. If I failed to communicate I meant that it may be that what God has warned unbelievers of is the worst possible outcome. I don't think any separation from God forever will be comfortable.

The One to carry out the judgment is Christ. Do not ask me to pronounce judgment beforehand. Do not attempt to gouge me to predict sentences.

We have enough told us that we realize we need redemption through Jesus Christ. You and I can never say that we did not know or we were not warned.

Do not attempt to force the Christian to judge before the time. I can only share with you what I read in His word, which same thing you can do. If I do interject my opinion I give you a heads up that this is my opinion about this or that. I told you "I could be wrong" above. Did I not ?

But a "dry run" on the last judgment predicting every case you imagine up, I will not do. People often would like to reduce God's wisdom down to something like a FORTRAN computer program, explaining what every "GO TO" branch of logic will do. I will not do that for you.

We therefore do not need to discuss the issue any further.

However, on the understanding that, for this non-Christian, hell will still be a very unpleasant place, I will continue with my response.

Originally posted by sonship

If your view is that there are degrees of hell, then to some extent you have already departed from the premise which formed the basis of my enquiry.

The Bible suggests to me justice is dispensed by God as the Judge deems appropriate -

[b]"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were o will still be a very unpleasant place, I will continue with my response. [/quote]

Before you continue in this vein, you must simply recognise that you are answering questions I did not ask.

I never asked you to 'predict sentences', so why raise this?

I never said we were not warned, but I consider it does not adequately explain why hell is necessary. So why raise it?

I simply posted the proposition that some Christians believe that non-Christians are sent to hell where they are subjected to eternal torment of some description.

If you don't believe this, or don't know whether this is true or not, then there is no reason for us to continue this discussion.

But, if that is what you believe then, unless you can set out any reasons why eternal torment is ever necessary for non-Christians, then you are simply wasting your valuable time.

It makes no such sense. Why does being the ultimate form of justice make it legitimate to send non-Christians to hell for eternity as opposed to just allowing them to die?

What we are told is this "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

And to repeat, maybe I do not know all the ways in which one's name may be written in the book of life.

I do know that if I believe into Christ I will be saved.

As for final judgment not making sense to you. Well if you convened a committee of thieves and asked them to come up with what an appropriate judgment for stealing should be, they may say "No judgment at all."

We sinners have a vested interest in not being judged by God. I don't think we can be relied upon to form a council and democratically vote on what the appropriate consequences should be for being sinners against God.

So your quip that it makes no sense is like a congress of rapists protesting that any penalty for rape makes no sense to them. A lighter sentence or no sentence at all might make sense to them.

God has been incarnated and lived a life for you. He suffered on the cross bearing up our sins in Himself under judgment the horrors of which we cannot understand. But He died for us. And He offers His life not only for us by to us as the Holy Spirit.

If you want to reject this you are not forced to have eternal redemption and eternal life. You are not forced to be conformed to the image of Christ through His salvation. But you cannot be relied upon to teach God what the penalty should be for your sins and your rejection of Christ's dying for you.

Me:
If God is indeed the highest rightness than it is His responsibility to inform all rebels that revolt against Him cannot cause one to win. You must lose.

You:
You don’t ‘win’ if you are allowed to die and fail to obtain a place in eternal paradise. You do not address why eternal torture is necessary.

Annihilation into non-existence is the cessation of punishment. It is to be released from punishment. Annihilation is escape from punishment. And that seems not to be a possibility from what I read.

You're saying "But Annihilation into a death of non-existence is not winning."

This would not be borne out in the Bible. Rather we see passages like this - "And it was given them [demonic locusts of the fifth trumpet] that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. (v.5)

And in those days men will seek death and shall by no means find it; and they will long to die, and death flees from them." (v.6)

You see? Punished rebels long for death and seek death as a way of escape from this five month punishment. They count (wrongly if God deems not) that death would be "winning" and an escape from their being judged.

During this time men seek death and will not find it. The Annihilationist who wants to reject salvation in Christ may want to seek death as an escape too. That to them would be a win. But God will not allow it.

me:
Eternal punishment allows you to reject and rebel against the highest righteousness.

you:
Sorry, this simply makes no sense. However can a punishment ‘allow you’ to do anything.

I am allowed to jump out the window of a five story building. Once I decide to jump I am not allowed to alter the consequences of my choice.

You are allowed to decide you want nothing to do with Christ. Freely choosing to reject Him you are not allowed to alter the consequences of appearing before God a guilty sinner who has spurned His love and offer of salvation.

As the law of gravity takes over once you jump out of the window so the Law of God, the holy and perfect God will take over upon your sins.

The New Testament says that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law having become a curse on our behalf (Gal. 3:13). This is a gracious salvation. I want to receive Him. I am not hunting for reasons to not be blessed of God.

If you don't know, I know what I did. And I am glad Christ took up my sins in His body onto the cross that I might be justified.

We do not say ‘The death penalty in the USA allows people to commit murder’.

If you complain to a higher God about the ways of God, how many levels of higher Gods will you go before you reach the last decision ?

Or do you imagine an infinite regress of better and better Governors ? What then is the result of getting to the very last level of appeal and you reject that decision also ?

Eternal judgment makes sense to me if there is a level of righteousness beyond which a higher is impossible.

I am comforted by realizing along with this that there is also in the same Person a level of love and a plan of redemption beyond which no higher is possible.

me:
And eternal punishment only makes sense if the Eternal God is that ultimate Being of love, righteousness, holiness and goodness.


Saying the same thing twice does not make it any more convincing. And adds unnecessary length. Why does being ultimately good justify punishing non-Christians for all eternity?

Rejecting it twice has a similar response from me.

I seem to have to repeat because you are not listening. What did I say about the book of life above at least twice ?

Concerning the "non-Christian" - I do see in the New Testament, some who were ignorant but were saved. This would be in Matthew 25:32-46 concerning the sheep and the goats immediately after the time of the great tribulation.

These "sheep" apparently were not aware of what or whom they were indirectly helping -

"Then the King will say to those on his right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me [something] to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in, Naked and you clothed Me.

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You, or thirsty and have given [You] a drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You?

And the King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me." (Matt. 25:34-40)

Here is a group of justified people who seem ignorant of Christ. I have to believe that their names must be recorded in the book of life at the end of the millennial kingdom.

This is enough to suggest that I do not know all the ways in which a person's name might be written into the book of life. Having said that, I would add that probably no one who is able to read this discussion will be in this group.

But SOMEONES will be in this group apparently. They were not aware that what they were doing would allow them to be saved sheep to be transferred into the millennial kingdom age.

You can lose forever by simply dying and not obtaining eternal paradise. You don’t address this point.

I explained above that annihilation into non-existence may be losing eternal joy. But it is imagined winning so as to escape judgment.

me:
Since the consequences of perpetual revolt against God are so terrible I spend at least equal time contemplating all that God has done that we may be saved from such a foolish choice as to not be reconciled to God……

you:
Sorry, this is simply irrelevant. I did not enquire about whether or not God has offered us a way out, what he has done for us, whether he is otherwise loving etc. I asked why it is necessary to impose hell on people who do not believe in him.

No it is not irrelevant. Because it probably is the case that being lost you are frozen into a state of perpetual continued sinning.

Robert Govett writes:

'There cannot be eternal suffering, ' you say. Will there not be eternal sinning among the lost ? Is God obligued to stay the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost ? 'You admit then, that it would be unjust in God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of men's past acts on earth.' By no means ! I account sin infinite.

This sentiment, that eternal punishment is unjust, comes from a partial judge. It is man, leaning toward his own race beyond what is just. It is a sinner inwardly bribed to give a verdict on behalf of sinners. It is a set of felons pretending to condemn the laws against felony. It is one-sided - intense appreciation of pain; but light appreciation of sin and its deserts. It is the sentiment of the ignorant. The best little apprehend the holiness of God. It is the result of a heart that is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" (Jeremiah 17:9)

.