Originally posted by rwingetthe can still do some pretty cool stuff without being omniscient. if he is, our free will i say might be compromised. and also, it would be mean of us to assume he is. do you imagine knowing everything? i don't imagine myself coping with what god has to cope if he knew what would happen for all eternity. i think god would want surprises so he created us. and gave us free will for his amusement.
That's a high price to pay for absolving god from the ultimate responsibility for evil, which is primarily what free will is all about. If god is not omniscient then his portfolio is seriously compromised.
Originally posted by JonoKyleBefore I respond to your concerns, JK, do you mind if I ask a question first? (BTW, I remember having similar questions and concerns that have largely now been satisfied). Did these questions spring up in your own mind while reading the Scriptures, or are they things you've heard others talking about that began making you ask questions?
Take note, I'm not out to prove or disprove anyone's beliefs here, I'm simply asking a question that I'm hoping to get more intelligent responses to than I sometimes can get from the people in my community.
To me, the God of the Old Testament (OT) seems so very, very different to the God of the New Testament (NT). A couple of reasons being:
1) His com ...[text shortened]... ing to understand this myself. I am a Theist, but one with so very, very many questions.
Originally posted by dizzyfingersBoth. I've always felt a bit of disconcernment with the way God seems to condone mass slaughter of non-Israeli nations in the OT, as if war was just the status-quo and he was happy to go with that. Reading these boards made it more defined however, as many of the verses I've seen quoted in other threads, albeit out of context, point out exactly what I was asking.
Before I respond to your concerns, JK, do you mind if I ask a question first? (BTW, I remember having similar questions and concerns that have largely now been satisfied). Did these questions spring up in your own mind while reading the Scriptures, or are they things you've heard others talking about that began making you ask questions?
KJ, in the beginning of this thread, you stated that you're a theist with many, many questions, and you discuss some thoughts on the OT & NT. Do you consider yourself a Christian, or something else? The reason I ask is I want to discuss a passage in the Gospels to reflect off something you just said, but I don't know if it would carry any weight with you if you have doubts about the divinity of Jesus to begin with.
Originally posted by dizzyfingersYes, I am a Christian, and a Bible passage carries weight, though I wouldn't take it as a be-all, "accept and don't question" answer.
KJ, in the beginning of this thread, you stated that you're a theist with many, many questions, and you discuss some thoughts on the OT & NT. Do you consider yourself a Christian, or something else? The reason I ask is I want to discuss a passage in the Gospels to reflect off something you just said, but I don't know if it would carry any weight with you if you have doubts about the divinity of Jesus to begin with.
Although I'm not entirely sure how the divinity of Jesus answers the question.
It just had to do with your comment about God accepting war as the status-quo. My train of thought was along these lines:
God has given mankind dominion in the earth (Gen. 1:28), and has thereby limited His own ability to exert His own will in the earth in doing so. He only reigns in the earth to the extent that He has willing and obedient subjects. In Mark 6 (the passage I was thinking about), Jesus is teaching in the synagogue in Nazareth, and the congregation becomes offended at Him. The testimony of the Scriptures is that, " .. He COULD DO NO mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled at their unbelief." We limit what God can do. God is willing and able to do more than we can ask or imagine, but He's limited by us, and chose to design it that way.
Now I bring all this up because of what your concerns were, as you stated them at the beginning of this thread. I don't believe God changed one iota from the OT into the NT. What changed was the covenant! And a covenant with God is established through a man (that is, an anthropos (Gk.) , member of mankind, so that includes women, too), or group of men. The extent of our faith and obedience is the extent that God can establish His kingdom here on earth. I don't believe He played favorites with the Jews in OT times - He was simply being faithful to the covenant He'd made with Abraham. When Jesus perfectly obeyed and established a new covenant in His blood, and the Jews rejected Him, a door of blessing was opened to the Gentiles. This is very brief, I know, and just takes a broad brush stroke to something deserving of more detail, but it's the best I can do for now. I hope the perspective it offers brings some clarity to what you're desiring to understand.
Originally posted by JonoKyleGod changed because the people who had to write about him were on the receiving end of a roman butt-kicking. You can only convince others of a warrior god when you're winning. When you're losing, you have to emphasize other attributes, or make future references for war to come, as in the book of revelations.
Take note, I'm not out to prove or disprove anyone's beliefs here, I'm simply asking a question that I'm hoping to get more intelligent responses to than I sometimes can get from the people in my community.
To me, the God of the Old Testament (OT) seems so very, very different to the God of the New Testament (NT). A couple of reasons being:
1) His com ...[text shortened]... ing to understand this myself. I am a Theist, but one with so very, very many questions.
Who in their right mind is going to convert and adopt the warrior god of a people being routed and dispersed?
Originally posted by dizzyfingersby your argument we can think god out of existence. if nobody believes in him, he will die.
It just had to do with your comment about God accepting war as the status-quo. My train of thought was along these lines:
God has given mankind dominion in the earth (Gen. 1:28), and has thereby limited His own ability to exert His own will in the earth in doing so. He only reigns in the earth to the extent that He has willing and obedient subjects. ...[text shortened]... ope the perspective it offers brings some clarity to what you're desiring to understand.
dude, we all interpret the bible. but yours is kind of a long shot.
- Joined
- 07 Jan 08
- Moves
- 34575
Heck, the God of the OT is different from the God of the OT! In the first creation story God is a much more distant creative entity. In the second creation story the God that is portrayed is much more interested and involved with humankind (Adam); there is an intimacy in the second creation story (that carries on through the Garden of Eden account and after) that is completely missing from the concept and actions of God that Genesis starts with.
So it's not just a matter of OT vs. NT - God is portrayed in different ways all through the Bible.
Originally posted by JonoKyle"Is it actually a change or is he essentially just changing his methods with the time?"
Take note, I'm not out to prove or disprove anyone's beliefs here, I'm simply asking a question that I'm hoping to get more intelligent responses to than I sometimes can get from the people in my community.
To me, the God of the Old Testament (OT) seems so very, very different to the God of the New Testament (NT). A couple of reasons being:
1) His com ...[text shortened]... ing to understand this myself. I am a Theist, but one with so very, very many questions.
Exactly. God does not change, but He does change what He is doing for very specific reasons.
The fact that you recognise the difference is assuring.
Consider this. The revelation of God's will in the Bible is progressive. There is a time line. God accomplished His will on the earth in the affairs of man for a definite purpose. Of course, this sounds silly to the atheist, but to the believer all that is recorded in the word of God, if understood properly, makes perfect sense.
All the confusion, concerning your very astute observance of the change in the way God, as recorded in the Bible, did things in the past as compared to the way He is doing things today, can be cleared up by applying a key principal of interpretation.
It begins here. Look closely at 2 Tim 2:15. KJV.
Originally posted by rwingettAnd therein lies the age-old (millenia-old?) question, doesn't it? My God is omniscient--I mean TOTALLY omniscient. He not only knows what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow, but how many times I'll chew it before swallowing it. Does free will take a hit there? Yep--a big one, in the way we (humans) understand it. But I happen to believe any contradictions we (humans) perceive with God and the Bible are failures of our own limited abilities to reason---not God's. Disclaimer--This of course, is but the belief of one single human, and is not meant to be construed as the beliefs of the entire human race. 🙂
That's a high price to pay for absolving god from the ultimate responsibility for evil, which is primarily what free will is all about. If god is not omniscient then his portfolio is seriously compromised.
Originally posted by ZahlanziI'm not sure how you reached that conclusion from what I wrote. Care to explain? What I stated was that God chose to put man in dominion over the earth. And yes, that limits His influence in the earth. If you believe otherwise, tell me why. But we can no more think God out of existence than we can think the wind out of existence. (And are you equating thinking with believing?)
by your argument we can think god out of existence. if nobody believes in him, he will die.
dude, we all interpret the bible. but yours is kind of a long shot.
Originally posted by PinkFloydSo items which are in harmony with god and the bible are correctly understood by humans, but items which seem to contradict god and the bible are merely limitations to our understanding. Nifty how that works.
And therein lies the age-old (millenia-old?) question, doesn't it? My God is omniscient--I mean TOTALLY omniscient. He not only knows what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow, but how many times I'll chew it before swallowing it. Does free will take a hit there? Yep--a big one, in the way we (humans) understand it. But I happen to believe any con ...[text shortened]... e single human, and is not meant to be construed as the beliefs of the entire human race. 🙂
