04 Dec 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelanimals not having soul would be supported if he would also claim that severely retarded people don't have a soul either. which by the way, there are some so called christians that do claim that.
I avoid the word "soul",though it has its uses from time to time. But, as you rightly pointed out , it cannot be proven.
I prefer the term "force of animation", although that too has its problems.
I'm liking the rest of your posts though, however BB is trying hard to express something.
As for animals not having a soul, I cant agree with BB. They clearly have a force of animation...
well better said, him claiming that would seriously mess up my debating mojo and i would have to come up with new stuff.
"it cannot be proven."
scientifically speaking, that is certainly true and i agree. what i am trying to do is use his logic and arguments and prove that logically speaking, his definition of a soul cannot exclude animals.
05 Dec 09
Originally posted by ZahlanziDoes my dog. Henry , go to heaven? Ihope and pray that when he dies ( he's 15 ) that his spirit ,his most incredible love of everyone who comes in contact with him somehow lives on forever. His caring of everyone at the cemetary where he works everyday as the grievance counselor to any and all who visit their loved ones gravesite . Henry is there next to you while you say good bye to your most recently deceased. he will leave your side only when you are ready to have him leave.That inner being that he has that love of every being on the planet must carryon forever , How can it just evaporate as mist in a hot morning is disapated into the atmosphere upon his death? maybe it does in some form but God created man in his own image not my Golden Retriever. My Dog is 99 percent more of a decent being on the planet than most people I have met. But i don't believe he has a soul and I am sorry for that if I am wrong. Maybe.. just maybe at the end of the day that is what separates us from animals our soul that continues it's movement through space from physical form to physical form , millenium after millenium. .
what traits does a soul have since you claim you are the only one having and a dolphin or a chimp doesn't? surely you can give a reason as to why you see a soul in yourself as opposed to your dog fido.
is it love? chimps, dolphins, cats love too. they care for their young. you may call it instinct but evolutionists call it a primitive form of love. chim ...[text shortened]... the point where he can feel, love, be afraid to die, will it have a soul even if we created it?
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05 Dec 09
Originally posted by big bernOr maybe there's no heaven, so you and your dog may be in the same boat post mortem.
... just maybe at the end of the day that is what separates us from animals our soul that continues it's movement through space from physical form to physical form , millenium after millenium. .
Or maybe nothing separates us from animals because we are animals as well.
Or just maybe anyone will rationalize anything at their whim, with not a whit of substantiation, because their belief system allows for it.
05 Dec 09
Originally posted by big bernwhy does god creating you in his own image say you have a soul? does god have a soul? or his own image means you have intelligence, the ability to create complex reasonings?
Does my dog. Henry , go to heaven? Ihope and pray that when he dies ( he's 15 ) that his spirit ,his most incredible love of everyone who comes in contact with him somehow lives on forever. His caring of everyone at the cemetary where he works everyday as the grievance counselor to any and all who visit their loved ones gravesite . Henry is there next to yo ...[text shortened]... t's movement through space from physical form to physical form , millenium after millenium. .
05 Dec 09
Originally posted by BadwaterEverything you just stated is true badwater. i can't , nor anyone for that matter, negate your previous three points. A belief system is exactly that. i have mine and you have yours. There is no wrong or right way to believe. You are on the right track though.... at least you believe in something. A vast majority of people do not. Good luck out there, b.
Or maybe there's no heaven, so you and your dog may be in the same boat post mortem.
Or maybe nothing separates us from animals because we are animals as well.
Or just maybe anyone will rationalize anything at their whim, with not a whit of substantiation, because their belief system allows for it.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by big bernSoul relates to Spirit. Spirit is in all things,rocks and vegetables,etc.
Does my dog. Henry , go to heaven? Ihope and pray that when he dies ( he's 15 ) that his spirit ,his most incredible love of everyone who comes in contact with him somehow lives on forever. His caring of everyone at the cemetary where he works everyday as the grievance counselor to any and all who visit their loved ones gravesite . Henry is there next to yo ...[text shortened]... t's movement through space from physical form to physical form , millenium after millenium. .
That a human "soul" may be much different from a dogs ,I'll agree with.
At the end of the day we should not kill,(directly or indirectly), as much as conciously possible. This is a basic guideline for any spiritual progress and understanding.
While we may not be able to fathom the "soul" of a dog, that does not mean that that dogs "soul" should not be respected. Soul and Spirit being synonymous with things like "freedom" ,equality, diversity,individual thinking,etc.
And yes, dogs are just amazingly loyal and faithful animals by and large. If you ever see a person hitting a dog you have to really anylize the motives behind such an attack. The person is nearly always responsible for any ensuing negativity.
06 Dec 09
3 edits
Originally posted by big bern=========================================
I am trying to explain to my kids where humans came from. I naturally don't believe that we evolved from some type of animal,Ape,Gorilla, whatever... But if I believe that we were always humans and not the by product of some evolutionary chart then what supports the theory that this suggests? The two first humans had to come from somewhere . Ah Yes God put ...[text shortened]... t is it you believe? What tale do you tell your children? What is the truth? Where are we from?
I am trying to explain to my kids where humans came from. I naturally don't believe that we evolved from some type of animal,Ape,Gorilla, whatever... But if I believe that we were always humans and not the by product of some evolutionary chart then what supports the theory that this suggests? The two first humans had to come from somewhere . Ah Yes God put them here ! So , you either believe this or what is it you believe? What tale do you tell your children? What is the truth? Where are we from?
========================================
Read to them the word of God. Just read it to them.
If you want to say you personally do not know, or you have this or that idea about it, that's okay.
But read them what the Bible says. These agnostics and atheists here do not realize the power of the Holy Spirit or the word of God. It is not as if God does not want them to HAVE this vital and crucial truth.
So, dad, I would suggest that along with your musings you give your kids a chance to hear the divinely inspired word of God.
"Here's a book called the Bible kids. And here it says ...
And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing which creeps upon the earth.
And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it .... etc.:"
Then read them also the account in Genesis chapter two:
"Jehovah God formed man with the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." (See Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7)
This is the way the Creator has chosen to express this revelation to generations of human beings. And behind this word is the living Spirit of their heavenly Father.
Can it hurt to simply read it to them? And read it to them again. That is what I would suggest even if you're not sure yourself where we came from.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillThanks Jaywill. have a great day. b.
[b]=========================================
I am trying to explain to my kids where humans came from. I naturally don't believe that we evolved from some type of animal,Ape,Gorilla, whatever... But if I believe that we were always humans and not the by product of some evolutionary chart then what supports the theory that this suggests? The two first ...[text shortened]... again. That is what I would suggest even if you're not sure yourself where we came from.
06 Dec 09
If you've always seen the argument as a black and white "God" vs. "science" ordeal,
the book Show Me God by Fred Heeren might be interesting for those with open
minds. Because science still can't trace back to the very beginning of our universe
(but we can come extremely, extremely close), there are still lots of theories out
there about exactly how the universe was created.
This book suggests that one theory that shouldn't be entirely discounted at this time
(because science is still looking for answers) is the possibility of a creator. Keep in
mind, this is written by a theist scientist seemingly trying to "prove" that God must be
the answer. As a skeptic, it didn't do enough to prove anything to me, but it did
remind me to keep my mind open about the possible explanations to things we are
still trying to understand.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by Traveling Againthe thing the fundamentalists cannot comprehend is that evolution doesn't disprove god. for the cristians it explains HOW god created the biological mass and for the atheists it simply is biology. no god involved. either way, evolution cannot be used as argument or counter argument to god's existance. and evolution being true doesn't harm god's awesomeness in any way.
If you've always seen the argument as a black and white "God" vs. "science" ordeal,
the book Show Me God by Fred Heeren might be interesting for those with open
minds. Because science still can't trace back to the very beginning of our universe
(but we can come extremely, extremely close), there are still lots of theories out
there ab ...[text shortened]... nd open about the possible explanations to things we are
still trying to understand.
in my opinion, the problem with christians accepting evolution lies with the fact that it would render a part of the bible untrue or not literally true. i am talking about genesis. in their view, the bible is 100% correct and shoult be taken literally and here lies the stupidity: they take genesis literally but don't have the stones to stone their wives to death if they cheat. also not one of those christians goes to the temple with a cow from their herd and sacrifice it as it is written in the leviticus for all those situations.
contradiction me thinks.
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06 Dec 09
Originally posted by ZahlanziYep.
the thing the fundamentalists cannot comprehend is that evolution doesn't disprove god. for the cristians it explains HOW god created the biological mass and for the atheists it simply is biology. no god involved. either way, evolution cannot be used as argument or counter argument to god's existance. and evolution being true doesn't harm god's awesomeness ...[text shortened]... it as it is written in the leviticus for all those situations.
contradiction me thinks.
07 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Badwateroh no, its the folly of you plastic christians who have supplanted the teachings of the Christ with secularism and so called science. Genesis is entirely corroborated by science, the problem however does not stem from us, but those who think that it is not scientifically viable, because they do not understand the scripture! thus it seems that those who deny the divine element also must deny the teachings of the Christ, or water them down to make it palatable to their tickled ears, and in doing so it becomes luke warm and good for nothing except spitting out! wussies!
Yep.
07 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehe is a very talented troll. i really must try very hard not to reply him. but it is hard.
oh no, its the folly of you plastic christians who have supplanted the teachings of the Christ with secularism and so called science. Genesis is entirely corroborated by science, the problem however does not stem from us, but those who think that it is not scientifically viable, because they do not understand the scripture! thus it seems that those ...[text shortened]... d ears, and in doing so it becomes luke warm and good for nothing except spitting out! wussies!
07 Dec 09
Originally posted by big bernI'm very glad my mother told my father (who was from a strong religious family) that I should be able to decide what I believe based on evidence in the world, not pipe fed to me by religious people quoting a Book that not only was translated poorly, was edited to fit the times as well as not much more than a list of stories and histories rather than a strict set of rules.
I am trying to explain to my kids where humans came from. I naturally don't believe that we evolved from some type of animal,Ape,Gorilla, whatever... But if I believe that we were always humans and not the by product of some evolutionary chart then what supports the theory that this suggests? The two first humans had to come from somewhere . Ah Yes God put ...[text shortened]... t is it you believe? What tale do you tell your children? What is the truth? Where are we from?
You'll probably prefer to keep your kids in the dark though, since you've made up your mind based on little evidence always refuting it because some thousands year old book was written by the hand of God most likely in your mind.
P-
08 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by PhlabibitThe Bible may be written long ago. But this goes to show it stands the test of time to acquire an approvedness over many centries and cultural ages.
I'm very glad my mother told my father (who was from a strong religious family) that I should be able to decide what I believe based on evidence in the world, not pipe fed to me by religious people quoting a Book that not only was translated poorly, was edited to fit the times as well as not much more than a list of stories and histories rather than a stri e some thousands year old book was written by the hand of God most likely in your mind.
P-
Can you name me another book which in so few words as Genesis chapters 1 through 11 explains so many vital points about human existence? In a very economical way the Bible takes a few thousand opening words to explain to us:
1.) The origin of space and time.
2.) The origin of living things
3.) The origin of the first man and woman
4.) The origin of the institution of marriage
5.) The purpose of human creation (See Gen. 1:26,27).
6.) The first environment of humans
7.) The origin of death.
8.) The origin of sin and immorality.
9.) The first murder
10.) The first nomad
11.) The first human city.
12.) The origin of industrial instruments
13.) The origin of domestic herding
14.) The origin of musical performance
15.) Initial spread of man over the earth
16.) The promise of God's salvation
17.) The first demonstration of divine judgment
18.) The first demonstration of divine redemption
19.) The origin of all different human languages.
20.) The record of the first world wide unified international effort
21.) The origin of human government
Name me one other book ever written which covers in as few words as many important topics of human history. And I don't mean several books but one book which like Genesis 1 through 11 covers as many vital topics.