Spirituality
02 Apr 11
05 Apr 11
Originally posted by PalynkaThis is not a coherent argument. Murder and killing are wrong in every value system including Islam. Christians have advocated murder and killing on religious grounds countless times as have Muslims which has precisely no bearing on the matter, because it depends how you use terms like "Christian" or "Muslim." They can refer to a set of religious beliefs or they can refer to social groups and only the context clarifies this. Too many people enjoy slipping and sliding between the different senses of these terms.
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I pointed out that this false claim is an example of islamaphobia and I used the behaviour of Pastor Jones to illustrate what, in my view, is the violent consequence of islamaphobia and the empty hypocrisy of its proponents. It is not a reasoned comment on the Qu'ran but a miserable insult, provocative to people who experience the recent behavi ...[text shortened]... none, then why don't you accuse the perpetrators of murder rather than Pastor Jones?
I am not endorsing killing at all. I am attacking hate speech. Incitement to hate is not fundamentally different to the resulting deeds.
Islamaphobia presents itself as an attack against certain beliefs (which I don't share being an atheist) but it functions very largely as an attack against social groups of people.
In the Middle East, Pastor Jones is accused of blasphemy, in England he could probably be tried for the crime of inciting hatred, in America there ought to be some framework for identifying the difference between free speech and inciting communal hatred. I recognize how difficult this can be and for example, would not accept a crime of blasphemy in Britain while I do accept the notion of a hate crime. However in reality the distinction between their use of the term blasphemy and my use of the term hate crime may not be far apart.
05 Apr 11
3 edits
Originally posted by finneganYou need to learn how to read or to stop mixing my opinions with the ones of others. Where did I compare the values of Christianity and Islam? You keep wanting to deflect there, I wonder why.
This is not a coherent argument. Murder and killing are wrong in every value system including Islam. Christians have advocated murder and killing on religious grounds countless times as have Muslims which has precisely no bearing on the matter, because it depends how you use terms like "Christian" or "Muslim." They can refer to a set of religious beliefs or een their use of the term blasphemy and my use of the term hate crime may not be far apart.
Did you, or did you not accuse Pastor Jones of being directly responsible for the deaths of UN workers? This is the fantastic moral contortionism that I accuse you of. The "direct" aspect of it. You prefer to accuse the book burner of being directly responsible for the deaths rather than the people who killed innocents because they were angry at book burning.
If someone had gone out and killed Muslims inspired by Pastor Jones I would understand where you are coming from. But the case is that people went out on a murdering rampage because they were angry against Pastor Jones. It's the equivalent argument of the "raped girl had it coming because she wore a short skirt". Worse. It's actually more like "girl was raped but it's because the other girl wore a skirt" ). And, frankly, it's sickening.
05 Apr 11
Originally posted by PalynkaRubbish. I made quite clear that I was responding to a post by Whodey.
You need to learn how to read or to stop mixing my opinions with the ones of others. Where did I compare the values of Christianity and Islam? You keep wanting to deflect there, I wonder why.
Did you, or did you not accuse Pastor Jones of being directly responsible for the deaths of UN workers? This is the fantastic moral contortionism that I accuse you o ...[text shortened]... s raped but it's because the other girl wore a skirt" ). And, frankly, it's sickening.
You jumped in on this issue about Pastor Jones and I don't agree with your opinion. Legally there is quite a clear concept of incitement, which I invoked in his case.
The consequence of his action was predicted in advance and he ignored the warnings and the requests to desist. He was reckless of the consequences, which were predictable. He put other people in danger. It is not over yet.
06 Apr 11
Originally posted by finneganI had a thread a while back titled "1000 years".
Xenophobia - hatred of foreigners - is a common characteristic among people whose land has for too long been interfered with by foreigners and who feel their values are being insulted and despised. Irish people had a similar reaction to the English at one time not so far back. Pastor Jones is tolerated in his country and has the freedom to be as offensive ...[text shortened]... to doctors performing abortions to Democrat politicians? Or is the US more civilized than that?
I was trying to get at the point that that some people, (actually whole gorups), act like people did a thousand years ago. Fearful of that which is different from their beliefs, (simply put).
Juxtaposed to this are the more "enlightened" people/groups that want to look on the positive side of all religons and the cultural traditions that sometimes hold back whole societies.
My way is to take the positive from all religons/ faiths/humanitarian outlooks and discard the negative stuff.
The Islamophobia displayed by a few posters, (and silently supported by some others, no doubt), may as well be the watered down views of the barbaric christians AND islamists from a 1000 years ago.
It is a big bridge to cross. But I reckon there is a critical mass in collective thinking that will turn the tables and bring everyone upto speed of where our world is at at the moment.
We need unification more than ever, it's a shame that in many societies it takes a natural disaster (for example), to bring the people together and forget about their religous differences and go back to their innate, innocent, altruistic natures ,(like children have), and leave our cultural/religous differences behind to embrace our simlilarities, of which we have more of than differences.
06 Apr 11
3 edits
Originally posted by PalynkaI beg to differ.
And for the record, Pastor Jones is as representative of Christian values as the murdering idiots are of Islamic ones.
Where in the Bible says "go burn the books of other religions"?
As for Qur'an, it does call for swinging swords, chopping
heads off, and getting medieval on unbelievers' rears.
In all fairness, though, the Qur'an also says that it is not cool
to kill oneself nor to murder kids.
However, we cannot deny that the Qur'an has a lot of fabric
where crazy guys can cut here and there to the advantage
of their "holy" causes.
06 Apr 11
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIt doesn't!
It does. Medical research has to take race into account, and race can be identified from genetic analysis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-07.htm
And there's another thousand pages I can pick out for you.
-m.
06 Apr 11
Originally posted by SeitseSame as Christanity.
I beg to differ.
Where in the Bible says "go burn the books of other religions"?
As for Qur'an, it does call for swinging swords, chopping
heads off, and getting medieval on unbelievers' rears.
In all fairness, though, the Qur'an also says that it is not cool
to kill oneself nor to murder kids.
However, we cannot deny that the Qur'an has a lot o ...[text shortened]... abric
where crazy guys can cut here and there to the advantage
of their "holy" causes.
06 Apr 11
Originally posted by finnegan"Legally, there is a clear concept of incitement".
Rubbish. I made quite clear that I was responding to a post by Whodey.
You jumped in on this issue about Pastor Jones and I don't agree with your opinion. Legally there is quite a clear concept of incitement, which I invoked in his case.
The consequence of his action was predicted in advance and he ignored the warnings and the requests to desist. He ...[text shortened]... of the consequences, which were predictable. He put other people in danger. It is not over yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement
"act of persuading, encouraging, instigating, pressuring, or threatening so as to cause another to commit a crime. [...] The inciter must intend the others to engage in the behaviour constituting the offence"
Pastor Jones did not intend UN workers to be killed, so he would not be guilty under such a definition of the murders of the UN workers. So either retract your legalist defense or backtrack and claim that the concept of incitement is not as clear as you pretended it is. You better give me an example of a legal definition that would include unintended deaths of UN workers.
06 Apr 11
Originally posted by SeitsePeople read what they want to read in both books. There's plenty of death and genocide in the Bible, too. Modern and intelligent theists of both religions dismiss those as "sign of the times" and read them metaphorically.
I beg to differ.
Where in the Bible says "go burn the books of other religions"?
As for Qur'an, it does call for swinging swords, chopping
heads off, and getting medieval on unbelievers' rears.
In all fairness, though, the Qur'an also says that it is not cool
to kill oneself nor to murder kids.
However, we cannot deny that the Qur'an has a lot o ...[text shortened]... abric
where crazy guys can cut here and there to the advantage
of their "holy" causes.
06 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaThere is no "commandment to misbehave" nor "authorization to misbehave"
People read what they want to read in both books. There's plenty of death and genocide in the Bible, too. Modern and intelligent theists of both religions dismiss those as "sign of the times" and read them metaphorically.
in the Bible as it appears in the Qur'an. Do not lie.
That is why when a nutcase does something awful "based" on the Bible, almost
everybody thinks "wow what a nutcase", but when the same happens with the
Qur'an not as many think the same.
06 Apr 11
Originally posted by SeitseI certainly do. You don't think because you are more familiar with normal Christians and perhaps less so with normal Muslims (who are never news)?
That is why when a nutcase does something awful "based" on the Bible, almost
everybody thinks "wow what a nutcase", but when the same happens with the
Qur'an not as many think the same.