23 Apr 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat you need to ask yourself is, "Can I look at something and tell how
So you do not believe that stars and galaxies further away than about 8,000 light years actually exist? And everyone else is wrongly assigning all that light we see at night to stars. Even though what we see looks remarkably like what we would expect from stars orbiting each other (galaxies) and many of the features in the light we see not only fits our t ...[text shortened]... t you see in the mirror is a reflection of you. You are jumping to conclusions when you do that.
old it is?" If I believe I can doe this, how do I do it and how do I know I
am right? Then explain it to Kelly and perhaps you can come to an
agreement, if that is what you want to do. Otherwise you will be in an
endless argument until one of you decides to stop or dies
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonI did ask that, and Kelly has actually essentially answered it by saying that you are making assumptions when you think you see stars exploding, and there is no valid reason to think the star or the subsequent explosion are stars and explosions, they are merely information in light that we cannot interpret what it means without making assumptions.
If we see a star explode to oblivion today that is one million light years away, WHEN did it explode?
This one simple basic question they cannot ever really answer because they cannot do so without exposing their illogic (and so I bet he will not answer)
He does not believe supernovas happen, and does not believe that God deliberately made the light in such a way as to make us think that they happen. He believes it is all misinterpretation on our part.
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by RJHindsI have done all that but we cant seem to come to any agreement. Kelly believes it is impossible to know how old something is. My dispute with him is mostly about the fact that he is inconsistent with his reasoning as to why he thinks it is impossible. He accepts written record for example as a valid method of determining age. He does not accept things that involve measuring the properties of substances and using the laws of physics to determine age.
What you need to ask yourself is, "Can I look at something and tell how
old it is?" If I believe I can doe this, how do I do it and how do I know I
am right? Then explain it to Kelly and perhaps you can come to an
agreement, if that is what you want to do.
He accepts written record as evidence that the universe existed at the time of writing, but he does not accept records contained in a beam of light. He has not been able to explain why he accepts one and not the other.
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23 Apr 11
Originally posted by RJHindsWell, that given, one opinion could be, "The amount of red shift in the light coming from a star is mathematically related to the distance to the star in light years. Say, a star is figured out by red shift to be 100,000 light years away, so something we see today happening to that star today, like the flash of a supernova, would have actually happened to that star 100,000 years ago, because being that far away, that's how long it took for the flash to get here today. So the star has to be at least that old."
What you need to ask yourself is, "Can I look at something and tell how
old it is?" If I believe I can doe this, how do I do it and how do I know I
am right? Then explain it to Kelly and perhaps you can come to an
agreement, if that is what you want to do. Otherwise you will be in an
endless argument until one of you decides to stop or dies
But the other opinion could be, "No matter what I look at, I can tell it's less than 8,000 years old because God teaches that through the Holy Bible. When He said, 'Let there be light' God must started the light that seems to be from that star, reaching Earth at that moment, and started the light from the supernova speeding out in all directions from a sort of big hollow spherical wave front, as if it had started from a central point 92,000 years earlier. When He did that, the light from that flash was 8000 light years from us. If and when God wants us to know why He did it that way, we'll know, either by being told or by figuring it out. I could just guess at the reason, but I know it is a good reason. Besides, I could ask you to explain why God did it the way you think it was happened."
RC, can you bring these two opinions into agreement?
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadI said what God made He made, and if we look at it and come up with some
So you do not believe that stars and galaxies further away than about 8,000 light years actually exist? And everyone else is wrongly assigning all that light we see at night to stars. Even though what we see looks remarkably like what we would expect from stars orbiting each other (galaxies) and many of the features in the light we see not only fits our t ...[text shortened]... t you see in the mirror is a reflection of you. You are jumping to conclusions when you do that.
thought about what we see that does not reflect reality, from that we are
creating illusions. It isn't what we are seeing is an illusion. I've made no
references to anything else. You can except whatever you want, if you start
off getting some of the foundational pieces of informaiton wrong, everything
you build upon that will be flawed as well.
Kelly
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou know what I believe about stars or are you lying about me? Seriously,
I did ask that, and Kelly has actually essentially answered it by saying that you are making assumptions when you think you see stars exploding, and there is no valid reason to think the star or the subsequent explosion are stars and explosions, they are merely information in light that we cannot interpret what it means without making assumptions.
He doe ...[text shortened]... a way as to make us think that they happen. He believes it is all misinterpretation on our part.
you are making claims about me that are false, is that dishonest?
Kelly
23 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIf you truly don't believe what he says you believe and you don't like that then why not simply tell us exactly what you DO believe on this matter so we can all stand corrected?
You know what I believe about stars or are you lying about me? Seriously,
you are making claims about me that are false, is that dishonest?
Kelly
If we see a star explode to oblivion today that is one million light years away, when did it explode?
Or didn't it explode? -if so, why would a deity make us see it explode?
Or was there no such star? -if so, why would a deity make us see a non-existent star?
I expect your usual totally pointless rude silence/non-answers ...........
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonYou see a star explode, why do you need me to tell you if you saw a star
If you truly don't believe what he says you believe and you don't like that then why not simply tell us exactly what you DO believe on this matter so we can all stand corrected?
If we see a star explode to oblivion today that is one million light years away, when did it explode?
Or didn't it explode? -if so, why would a deity make us see it expl ...[text shortened]... ee a non-existent star?
I expect your usual pointless rude silence/non-answers ...........
explode? Seems to me you know the answer, now with respect to time, I do
not know exactly how for way your exploding star is, if you claim you know
than that is on you.
Kelly
23 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJay“...You see a star explode, why do you need me to tell you if you saw a star
You see a star explode, why do you need me to tell you if you saw a star
explode? Seems to me you know the answer, now with respect to time, I do
not know exactly how for way your exploding star is, if you claim you know
than that is on you.
Kelly
explode? ...”
to expose your illogic -which is why you will never answer.
“...I do not know exactly how for way your exploding star is ...”
as I just said, in that hypothetical scenario, it is one million light years away.
“...if you claim you know than that is on you. ...”
what is on me? In that hypothetical scenario, WE know.
I was correct: out of “silence/non-answers” it was the usual totally pointless rude non-answers.
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton"hypothetical scenario" it can be whatever you want, it was a hypothetical scenario.
“...You see a star explode, why do you need me to tell you if you saw a star
explode? ...”
to expose your illogic -which is why you will never answer.
“...I do not know exactly how for way your exploding star is ...”
as I just said, in that hypothetical scenario, it is one million light years away.
“...if you claim you know than that is ...[text shortened]... I was correct: out of “silence/non-answers” it was the usual totally pointless rude non-answers.
You either saw it or you didn't, can you see one explode that far away well
hypothetically it appears so by your question you can, what do you need me
for?
Kelly
23 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI am not lying about you, I am merely restating what you yourself have said in this thread. You have clearly, and unequivocally stated that you do not believe that the majority of stars we see in the sky exist. You believe that we see light and that any assumptions we make about where that light comes from are just baseless assumptions. Except you personally believe (because of what you read in the Bible) that that light was created in space by God.
You know what I believe about stars or are you lying about me? Seriously,
you are making claims about me that are false, is that dishonest?
Kelly
If you wish to retract your claims then please do so, but do not accuse me of lying about you when I haven't. If you feel I have misunderstood you, then please clarify.
23 Apr 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou are lying, completely unbecoming of you.
I am not lying about you, I am merely restating what you yourself have said in this thread. You have clearly, and unequivocally stated that you do not believe that the majority of stars we see in the sky exist. You believe that we see light and that any assumptions we make about where that light comes from are just baseless assumptions. Except you person ...[text shortened]... e of lying about you when I haven't. If you feel I have misunderstood you, then please clarify.
Kelly
24 Apr 11
Originally posted by KellyJayYou guys are still just arguing and getting nowhere. I've never
You are being very dishonest putting words and intent in my mouth on things
I have not said.
Kelly
seen a star explode, but I don't spend much time looking at
stars. I haven't had enough experience with star to know the
difference between a young star and an old star. But I have
had experience with people and I can easily tell a young
person from an old person. But when it comes down to knowing
exactly how old they are by looking at them, I don't know how
to do that. I would be only guessing for some people look
younger than they are to me and others look older. I remember
when I was young and went to a carnival, there was a man that
claimed he was good at guessing ages; but even he did not
get them all right. As for rocks, geologist claim they have instruments
to help approximate their date. And I have heard of carbon-dating
which is good I understand. But I have never heard of any method
of dating that claims to give exact age other than from a written source
like a birth certificate or drivers license. What I was trying to get
twhitehead to do is to use his own experience to explain to you how
he knows he is correct when he tells the age of something, then
I could learn something too. Then it is possible that we are both missing
something that he knows to be true from his own experience in dating
things and how accurate he knows his method to be. That is, is there any
proof? Maybe you could ask him in a way that it all makes sense to
everyone.