Given enough time anything can happen, really!

Originally posted by twhitehead
I know we have discussed this before, but I never got a satisfactory answer from you.
Scenario A: Astronomers view
1. A star is z light years away and is in position x when light leaves it.
2. When light reaches us, z years later, the star is now in position y, but we observe it in position x.
3. What we are seeing is the star as it existed when light ...[text shortened]... upernova. God wanted us to think there was a start there even though there never really was one.

Things are where they are, you look at them and take meaning from it, sometimes
your right other times you are not. It is still no different than walking into a room
and seeing a candle sitting on a desk that is burning. Just seeing the shape of the
candle does not mean you look at it and know how long the flame was lit, someone
could have lit the candle 5 mnutes before you walked into the room or the candle
could have been burning for 3 hours due to what the candle looks like before it was
lit. You simply don't know by looking at it, the same is true with the universe and
stars, how long it has been there just by looking at it is not a good way to figure
it out. Depending on how it started it have been there for a few thousand years
or billions, pick one then it will be a matter of faith for you.
Kelly

Originally posted by Proper Knob
There are countless dating techniques, none of them, i'll repeat that, none of them indicate that the earth and all life on it is less that 10,000yrs old. It is you who is making the assumptions based on a story some Bronze Age desert tribesman wrote down 3,000yrs ago.

Could you explain to to me the cognitive processes you have gone through to reach the conclusion that the earth and everything on it is less than 10,000yrs old?!

You do not know how long everything has been here, since you do not know how
it all started. Countless dating techniques will give you numbers, they will not be
able to tell you if everything you think is true, is.
Kelly

Originally posted by Proper Knob
There are countless dating techniques, none of them, i'll repeat that, none of them indicate that the earth and all life on it is less that 10,000yrs old. It is you who is making the assumptions based on a story some Bronze Age desert tribesman wrote down 3,000yrs ago.

Could you explain to to me the cognitive processes you have gone through to reach the conclusion that the earth and everything on it is less than 10,000yrs old?!

My experience with God, the creator of the universe has brought me the place
where I give Him credit for creating this place and all that is in it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You do not know how long everything has been here, since you do not know how
it all started. Countless dating techniques will give you numbers, they will not be
able to tell you if everything you think is true, is.
Kelly

So how did you come by your age of the universe then?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Things are where they are, you look at them and take meaning from it, sometimes
your right other times you are not. It is still no different than walking into a room
and seeing a candle sitting on a desk that is burning. Just seeing the shape of the
candle does not mean you look at it and know how long the flame was lit, someone
could have lit the candl ...[text shortened]... r a few thousand years
or billions, pick one then it will be a matter of faith for you.
Kelly

Not true, you can make deductions by looking at the evidence. For example, you can measure the rate at which the candle burns and you can measure how much wax has been melted already. From those two observations you will be able to make a judgement based on the evidence.

I grant you, the 'exact' time for how long the candle will not be known, but a fairly accurate prediction can be made.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Not true, you can make deductions by looking at the evidence. For example, you can measure the rate at which the candle burns and you can measure how much wax has been melted already. From those two observations you will be able to make a judgement based on the evidence.

I grant you, the 'exact' time for how long the candle will not be known, but a fairly accurate prediction can be made.

If you find a burning candle can you correctly assume someone made it and lit it?

Originally posted by dj2becker
If you find a burning candle can you correctly assume someone made it and lit it?

I think that would be a safe assumption.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
No, of course not - e=mc^2 and all I'm happy to consider matter and energy to be interchangeable. I was laughing at the idea of someone who has made the assumption that everything in the bible is true questioning the assumptions made by modern physics. In fact, I'm laughing again now.

mocker!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mocker!

I suppose, but it seemed reasonable under the circumstances.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Not true, you can make deductions by looking at the evidence. For example, you can measure the rate at which the candle burns and you can measure how much wax has been melted already. From those two observations you will be able to make a judgement based on the evidence.

I grant you, the 'exact' time for how long the candle will not be known, but a fairly accurate prediction can be made.

That is what I said, you can do the math; however, you do not know if the candle
was lit for 5 minutes or 3 hours. The rate of burn does not tell you when was the
last time that candle was lit, just as creation does not allow you to know how or
when everything was started by just looking at it. We can follow rates as we look
at them for dating, but that just gives us rates we can apply to possible start
limitations. Our candle by our observation could be lit for no more than 3 hours,
and the thing could have been lit anytime before we walked into the room.
Kelly

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So how did you come by your age of the universe then?

There is debate about our recorded history within scripture, those that believe in
what is called the gap theory within scripture have the earth much older than those
that do not believe in it. The gap that they are referring to is between Gen 1:1 and
Gen 1:2. This period is either a very large unknown time period where another
universal time was in play, where dinosaurs lived and so on which was destroyed
by water. Some believe this is where the angles had their shot where some fell
and others didn't and now we are getting our shot. I don't believe this, but as I
have said I acknowledge I can be wrong, believe it or not it’s happened before. 🙂

Genesis
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2The earth was barren, with no form of life; it was under a roaring ocean covered
with darkness. But the Spirit of God was moving over the water.

I think those that believe this are just trying to make scripture fit what other people
believe, I just don't think the rest of scripture fits this belief. I do acknowledge
again I can be wrong, one of the most knowledgeable people I know personally
about scripture believes this and disagreeing with him isn't something I'd normally
do lightly, but I think he is wrong here.


I'd say recorded history through scripture is how I get my dates, if that is what
you are asking.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Things are where they are, you look at them and take meaning from it, sometimes
your right other times you are not. It is still no different than walking into a room
and seeing a candle sitting on a desk that is burning. Just seeing the shape of the
candle does not mean you look at it and know how long the flame was lit, someone
could have lit the candl r a few thousand years
or billions, pick one then it will be a matter of faith for you.
Kelly

I see you persist in refusing to addressing the point I brought up. As I said, it has been discussed before, and even last time you refused to address it.
I am not talking about whether or not we know how old stars are, or anything like that.
I am merely stating an obvious point of physics ie if you see something, what you think you see is where you think the light is coming from. If the light does not originate at the object you think you see then you are seeing an illusion.
You essentially claimed that the light from stars might have been created by God in transit and not actually have come from stars themselves. If this is the case then it follows that the stars we think we see are illusory. In some cases (when they go supernova), they never existed and never will exist. God created 4 billion years of fake universe history, including millions if not billions of stars that never existed. All this follows logically from your claim. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'faith' on my part.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I suppose, but it seemed reasonable under the circumstances.

well if it raises a smile it cant be bad 🙂

Originally posted by twhitehead
I see you persist in refusing to addressing the point I brought up. As I said, it has been discussed before, and even last time you refused to address it.
I am not talking about whether or not we know how old stars are, or anything like that.
I am merely stating an obvious point of physics ie if you see something, what you think you see is where you th ...[text shortened]... is follows logically from your claim. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'faith' on my part.

God did not create a fake universe, He just created one and your claiming
knowledge about things that may not fit reality. It may not fit your model, but that
was what I was telling you, the way things are cannot tell you how long they have
been here, only how long that could have been here there is a difference.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Things are where they are, you look at them and take meaning from it, sometimes
your right other times you are not. It is still no different than walking into a room
and seeing a candle sitting on a desk that is burning. Just seeing the shape of the
candle does not mean you look at it and know how long the flame was lit, someone
could have lit the candl ...[text shortened]... r a few thousand years
or billions, pick one then it will be a matter of faith for you.
Kelly

looking at a candle is far different than looking at a galaxy 100million light years away. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second or 700 million miler per hour. A light year is the distance light will travel in one years time which is just under 10trillion miles. If a galaxy is 100 million light years away then we are seeing light that originated 100million years ago, its not about faith.

faith is believing that God created the universe, not believing some simplistic allegory written 3000 years ago by a people with limited scientific understanding. Just because the creation didn't happen 10,000 years ago and happen in 6 days does not mean that God didn't do it, I believe he did, just not in the simplistic way you are proposing.