Free Will?

Originally posted by whodey
I think a better question is why there are those who do not place a value on my life or your life or anyones life for that matter.

If God went to the trouble of creating us, it stands to reason that he placed value upon our lives.

He went to the trouble of making nasty germs that make people die hideous deaths...does he value them just as much as he values humans?

Does he value the life of some humans less than he values others? (ie: Hitler having a sudden heart attack before his wicked schemes were in full flow may have saved countless thousands of his blessed creations but he just sat back and let the Jews be slaughtered as a result of Hitler's free-will). Are there some people god doesn't like?...did them Jews get their just desserts??

Originally posted by whodey
God places value on ones existence because God is a God of love.

Sure he is, ask the Midianites or the residents of Jericho.

Does he love amoebas, too?

Originally posted by Agerg
He went to the trouble of making nasty germs that make people die hideous deaths...does he value them just as much as he values humans?

Does he value the life of some humans less than he values others? (ie: Hitler having a sudden heart attack before his wicked schemes were in full flow may have saved countless thousands of his blessed creations but he just ...[text shortened]... ews be slaughtered as a result of Hitler's free-will). Are there some people god doesn't like?

Death is a result of the fall of man, therefore, those hideous germs were simply a result of man's actions than God's actions.

In reference to your question about why God did not take out Hitler sooner I would say that wickedness has its limits. The people of Sodom and Ghommora crossed the line, the people in Noah's time crossed the line, and you could even say that Hitler crossed the line as well, he just was not taken out as soon as you think he should have been. I am sure that Lot or Noah wondered why God did not intervene quicker as well. All I can say is that he is merciful and longsuffering. It is interesting to note, however, that many atheists harp on God for taking out the wicked inhabitants of such places as Sodom and Ghommora. However, when it comes to wickedness in more modern times such as Hitler, we understand why such wickedness needs to be dealt with and wonder why God did not act sooner.

This raises an interesting question, however. Are we truly free to sin and how does God judge sin? Before man fell God told Adam and Eve that if they were to choose to sin they would die. So for all intensive purposes, God is judging the entire human race in terms of our sinfulness because we are slowly dying. No one will EVER escape judgement. However, God chose not to make such judgements instantaniously. It is a slow process in which we have time for reflection so as to have time for possible repentance. If sin is to be seen as corrosive and harmful, why does God not stop such sin instantly in order to spare those "innocent" people from being effected? If God were to do so then God would have to judge sin instantly as it happens which would make it impossible fore a period of reflection and possible repentance. In effect, you and I would have been judged long ago and would be dead had God chosen to deal with sin in this way. However, the more you sin the closer deaths door comes towards you. That is if you really believe that the wages of sin is death. For example, the more you sleep around and do drugs and murder other people the more likely that your life will come to an untimely demise. The higher the sin ratio in your life the higher the risk of death becomes to you in relation to your wickedness. It is simply high risk behavior.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Sure he is, ask the Midianites or the residents of Jericho.

Does he love amoebas, too?

Just as much as he loved his Son whom he had crusified and as much as his disciples whom he let be martyred for their beliefs and just as much as he loved the Israelites whom he judged by letting them be conquered by other empires in order to judge their sinfulness.

Originally posted by whodey
Death is a result of the fall of man, therefore, those hideous germs were simply a result of man's actions than God's actions.

In reference to your question about why God did not take out Hitler sooner I would say that wickedness has its limits. The people of Sodom and Ghommora crossed the line, the people in Noah's time crossed the line, and you could ev k of death becomes to you in relation to your wickedness. It is simply high risk behavior.

Death is a result of the fall of man, therefore, those hideous germs were simply a result of man's actions than God's actions. So instead of chiding just those who deserve it for being naughty he makes it such that all people (new born or not) play the lottery of horrific pain and suffereng at these microrganisms (important word that...means they live too!) we call germs??? What a benevolent god that is!

God: Sorry sport, I know you're only 6 months old an' all but some dude called Adam ate from the tree of knowledge a bloody long time ago! Terrible that!!! so I'm afraid you're gonna hafta put up with a load of tiny critters feasting on your body such that you writhe in agony without the ability to tell someone where it hurts or understand why you deserve it..But take comfort in knowing that I, the great merciful and loving God do this out of love and because you are more a sinner than all those adults roaming about killing people living perfectly healthy lives

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Death is a result of the fall of man, therefore, those hideous germs were simply a result of man's actions than God's actions. So instead of chiding just those who deserve it for being naughty he makes it such that all people (new born or not) play the lottery of horrific pain and suffereng at these microrganisms (important word that...means they liv nner than all those adults roaming about killing people living perfectly healthy lives[/b]

I think you will find that sin is a destructive force in which both sinner and innocent suffer. Just ask Christ himself how fair it is that his innocent soul should have to suffer because of sin. Another thing to ponder is that we are in a spiritual war. Terrible things happen to innocent people in times of war. This is why God hates sin as much as he does. Just remember, you and I are sinners, so thank him for being merciful and longsuffering. Especially in light of the fact that both of us have hurt "innocent" people as well.

Originally posted by whodey
I think you will find that sin is a destructive force in which both sinner and innocent suffer. Just ask Christ himself how fair it is that his innocent soul should have to suffer because of sin. Another thing to ponder is that we are in a spiritual war. Terrible things happen to innocent people in times of war. This is why God hates sin as much as he doe ...[text shortened]... ffering. Especially in light of the fact that both of us have hurt "innocent" people as well.

Were dinosaurs sinners too? what caused the fall of dinosaurs cos they got wiped out well before Adam and Eve!!! or is it silly to believe in dinosaurs and such?

You say God hates sin an' all but he doesn't seem to mind letting those who sin make the innocent their victims. Seems like a bit of a fecked up thing this god of yours!

Also, I can't ask Jesus Christ (nor can anyone else) cos conveniently he's never about...nor is your god!! In fact no one alive today has even seen this god, or have any evidence that he is still employed as god....what if the FSM sacked him for being a wally...do you seriously think that the FSM would just stride right on up to you and tell like it is??? you should consider this gravely for you might be worshiping that which his noodliness decided was unfit to have worship status anymore!

Originally posted by whodey
Just as much as he loved his Son whom he had crusified and as much as his disciples whom he let be martyred for their beliefs and just as much as he loved the Israelites whom he judged by letting them be conquered by other empires in order to judge their sinfulness.

Just as much as he loved his Son whom he had crusified and as much as his disciples whom he let be martyred for their beliefs and just as much as he loved the Israelites whom he judged by letting them be conquered by other empires in order to judge their sinfulness.

Hmm...god has to *judge* sinfulness eh? being the all knowing, all seeing, all doing special friend of everyone's shouldn't he just *know* how sinful they were? and his only way of judging sinfulness is letting them be conquered??? whats in it for the Israelites if they were conquered but found innocent?
Does this mean humans are cleverer than god? our judicial systems are miles better!!!

Originally posted by Agerg
Were dinosaurs sinners too? what caused the fall of dinosaurs cos they got wiped out well before Adam and Eve!!! or is it silly to believe in dinosaurs and such?

You say God hates sin an' all but he doesn't seem to mind letting those who sin make the innocent their victims. Seems like a bit of a fecked up thing this god of yours!

Also, I can't ask Jesus ...[text shortened]... ht be worshiping that which his noodliness decided was unfit to have worship status anymore!

Well as far as the dinosaurs go I have my theories. You see Lucifer fell and was caste to the earth long before Adam and Eve walked the earth, or at least according to the book of Enoch. I believe the book of Enoch states that Lucifer fell in the second day of creation. I am not prepared to say this with 100% certainty because the book of Enoch is not a cannonized book of the Bible but I think it is possibly true.

I suppose we could go round and round as you take shots at my belief system and watch me duck and weave. If nothing else I hope I have helped you look at things in ways that you have not thought about them before. As for proving to you that God exists, I cannot do that. If this was what he is after then he would prove himself to you. There are but two possibilities. Either God does not exist or he requires faith as the Bible states. My only advice to you is if you think there is but a slight chance you are wrong, ask him directly. Ask him if he exists to reveal himself to you. After all, what do you have to loose?

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Just as much as he loved his Son whom he had crusified and as much as his disciples whom he let be martyred for their beliefs and just as much as he loved the Israelites whom he judged by letting them be conquered by other empires in order to judge their sinfulness.

Hmm...god has to *judge* sinfulness eh? being the all knowing, all seeing, all doing nocent?
Does this mean humans are cleverer than god? our judicial systems are miles better!!![/b]

If you read the Torah it shows where the nation of Israel made a covenant with God and agreed to serve him and to forsake idol worship before they entered the promised land. God then asked them to choose blessing or choose cursing from that point forward. He then privatly took Moses aside and told him that they would eventually forsake him and pay the consequences, however, he would not give up on them altogether and he has not up on them up until this very day.

Edit: Trust me in that God's judicial system is much better than our own. God sees our hearts as where our judicial system seems to only see our $$$. Just as the likes of such people as Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, etc.

Originally posted by whodey
Just as much as he loved his Son whom he had crusified and as much as his disciples whom he let be martyred for their beliefs and just as much as he loved the Israelites whom he judged by letting them be conquered by other empires in order to judge their sinfulness.

So he does love amoebas? Will they be in Heaven, too?

You do know what an amoeba is, don't you (HINT: Look in a dictionary; it's not in the Bible)?

Only a psychotic would show his "love" for somebody by making them suffer and die. Your God sounds like OJ.

Originally posted by no1marauder
So he does love amoebas? Will they be in Heaven, too?

You do know what an amoeba is, don't you (HINT: Look in a dictionary; it's not in the Bible)?

Only a psychotic would show his "love" for somebody by making them suffer and die. Your God sounds like OJ.

But if the glove don't fit you must acquit!!!!! And the glove don't fit!!!

How God places value for his creation is only known to him. However, he has made known to the human race how he values us in that he sent his Son to die for our redemption. Sin is what causes us to suffer but you can just blame God if you like.

Originally posted by whodey
But if the glove don't fit you must acquit!!!!! And the glove don't fit!!!

How God places value for his creation is only known to him. However, he has made known to the human race how he values us in that he sent his Son to die for our redemption. Sin is what causes us to suffer but you can just blame God if you like.

Gee, you pretend you know all kinds of things about God but duck the hard questions.

Does human sin cause earthquakes and tidal waves? Besides how do you define sin? Usually by reference to some type of disobedience to Super Duper God. Since Monster God decides what sin is, of course it's his fault when the inferior creatures he designed fail to meet his Super Duper standards.

Your idea of God is silly; a 3 0 Super Duper Being who decided he wanted something to love him. Then he decides to punish those who don't. Why didn't he just buy a dog?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Gee, you pretend you know all kinds of things about God but duck the hard questions.

Does human sin cause earthquakes and tidal waves? Besides how do you define sin? Usually by reference to some type of disobedience to Super Duper God. Since Monster God decides what sin is, of course it's his fault when the inferior creatures he designed fa ...[text shortened]... mething to love him. Then he decides to punish those who don't. Why didn't he just buy a dog?

So do you think anyone would die if an earthquake occured if man was not a fallen race and living in a fallen world? I do not think so.

I think the reason you find the "sin" problem so amusing is that you do not take it seriously. God is holy and sees the corrosive nature of sin as where you are a sinner and therefore do not see the true nature of sin and merely scoff at it and judge God as he attempts to judge those that sin. Scoff all you want, however, I would not want to be the one judging the Almighty.

Originally posted by whodey
So do you think anyone would die if an earthquake occured if man was not a fallen race and living in a fallen world? I do not think so.

I think the reason you find the "sin" problem so amusing is that you do not take it seriously. God is holy and sees the corrosive nature of sin as where you are a sinner and therefore do not see the true nature of sin an ...[text shortened]... e that sin. Scoff all you want, however, I would not want to be the one judging the Almighty.

Whodey....you do not question the way in which your god or religion is defined. It has been defined wholly by way of man (either through books written by them or their words). We scoff because the inconsistancies and contradictions are rife as hell...and as I said much earlier these religions were born at a time when science and social values were less advanced than they are today