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14 Aug 12
Originally posted by jaywillno, i mean my brain did it. do you think god forced my brain to write what i wrote?
I asked it out of a free will to ask.
Do you mean that God forced your brain to write what you wrote ?
what makes you know that it was free will other than because the bible says so. do you think you were capable of making any other decision other than to write?
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieThis is what you initially wrote:
no, i mean my brain did it. do you think god forced my brain to write what i wrote?
what makes you know that it was free will other than because the bible says so. do you think you were capable of making any other decision other than to write?
i see many christians on here use free will as a way of excusing bad human behavior. i ask this though - if god knows what is going to happen to everybody then it is impossible for them to have free will. we all have our futures planned out. nothing can change.
I wasn't supporting your view. I was questioning it.
I don't think it follows that your future is planned even if God knows what you freely choose to do. I have heard this argument before. " If God knows all my choices then I am programmed and not free. "
I don't think this foreknowledge of God means predestination.
Now, I'll tell you what I think is true. There are some decisions that if you freely make them, there is then no easy escape from the consequences of that choice.
I may choose to or not to jump out of the window on the 10th floor of a office building. I am free to do it. Now, once I decide to jump out the window, I may not be completely free.
I may not be able to be free from the consequences of my choice. Gravity will take over and it doesn't care how I feel about falling to the pavement below one bit.
But, I am not persuaded that God's foreknowledge means I have no freedom.
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14 Aug 12
Originally posted by jaywillyou may think of all the options available when you imagine a scenario, but when it gets to the actual moment you can only make one decision, that decision would always be the same no mater how many times you could replay that moment, which means you only really had one decision that you were capable of making. if you only have one true possibility then you only have one path which means you do not have the biblical idea of a free will.
This is what you initially wrote:
i see many christians on here use free will as a way of excusing bad human behavior. i ask this though - if god knows what is going to happen to everybody then it is impossible for them to have free will. we all have our futures planned out. nothing can change.
I wasn't supporting your view. I wa ...[text shortened]... one bit.
But, I am not persuaded that God's foreknowledge means I have no freedom.
at what point in the thought process is their an option to bypass the brains chemical based decision process. everything we do is limited by the confines of our mind.
prove to me otherwise. give me a practical example of free will.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieWasn't the following a practical example of free will?
you may think of all the options available when you imagine a scenario, but when it gets to the actual moment you can only make one decision, that decision would always be the same no mater how many times you could replay that moment, which means you only really had one decision that you were capable of making. if you only have one true possibility then ...[text shortened]... the confines of our mind.
prove to me otherwise. give me a practical example of free will.
"I may choose to or not to jump out of the window on the 10th floor of a office building. I am free to do it. Now, once I decide to jump out the window, I may not be completely free.
I may not be able to be free from the consequences of my choice. Gravity will take over and it doesn't care how I feel about falling to the pavement below one bit."
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14 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsno, thats not an example. the situation doesnt prove that jaywill was going to do anything but jump. jaywill thinks of the options available to him he thinks 'i could jump', 'i could not jump' he equally think anything else 'i might whistle dixie as i burn' or 'ill phone rj and chat while i die'. when it actually comes to the final decision jaywill's example proves nothing, his brain/personality was only ever going to do one thing. no matter how many times we rewind time and re do it jaywill will always make the same decision. thats because there is a thought process his mind follows, as long as the variable stay the same he will always make the same decision. which means he never really had freedom to choose.
Wasn't the following a practical example of free will?
"I may choose to or not to jump out of the window on the 10th floor of a office building. I am free to do it. Now, once I decide to jump out the window, I may not be completely free.
I may not be able to be free from the consequences of my choice. Gravity will take over and it doesn't care how I feel about falling to the pavement below one bit."
14 Aug 12
3 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfieI used to be of the opinion that only the point that "God" is defined to be omniscient was enough to destroy the argument that we have freewill; I don't agree with this anymore however.
no, thats not an example. the situation doesnt prove that jaywill was going to do anything but jump. jaywill thinks of the options available to him he thinks 'i could jump', 'i could not jump' he equally think anything else 'i might whistle dixie as i burn' or 'ill phone rj and chat while i die'. when it actually comes to the final decision jaywill's ex ...[text shortened]... will always make the same decision. which means he never really had freedom to choose.
Hypothetically speaking I may well be able to choose X or ¬X with it being the case that "God" infallibly knows what I will choose - and still have freewill. The defence theists use to force through this argument is that "God" supposedly exists independent of our own timeline (and so from our perspective there exists an entity who has seen our entire pasts and entire futures (in some non-colinear time "space" ) - we have yet to make the choices it saw us make without coerscion). I see this defence as valid (in theory at least)
That it also created the universe however (and the timeline which accompanies it)...that's a different story.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieSo are you saying that you are always going to reject the gift of eternal life, no matter what?
no, thats not an example. the situation doesnt prove that jaywill was going to do anything but jump. jaywill thinks of the options available to him he thinks 'i could jump', 'i could not jump' he equally think anything else 'i might whistle dixie as i burn' or 'ill phone rj and chat while i die'. when it actually comes to the final decision jaywill's ex ...[text shortened]... will always make the same decision. which means he never really had freedom to choose.
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14 Aug 12
Originally posted by Suzianne" free will is also the only way that you can be held accountable for your own decisions."
You forget that free will is also the only way that you can be held accountable for your own decisions. Do you take responsibility for your own actions, or do you not? If not, why not? Claiming you have no free will doesn't give you much of a leg to stand on.
That may have some bearing on whether a violation deserves a punishment, but it does not have any bearing on whether punishment cannot justifiably be used as a deterrent.
The same is true of rewards for compliance.
Both rewards and punishments make up the external factors that, if there is no free will, go into determining the decision.
However I am of the opinion that it is not a matter of choice, to believe and act as though we have free will.😉
14 Aug 12
it's really quiet simple. if our though process is contained fully within the physical universe, then we have no free will since it's all a bunch of particles bumping into each other. it would only be apparent free will due to the astonishingly large number of variables at work.
if however, our real "self" is located somewhere outside of the universe and our brains are only a transmitter/receiver to this 'self' then our decision making would no longer be limited by physics and it's possible to have free will as long as the link to the 'self' is maintained (ie. no brain damage or alteration).
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieI would argue that this exemplifies a free choice. If jaywill had somehow chosen not to jump, what is the basis for that decision?
no matter how many times we rewind time and re do it jaywill will always make the same decision. thats because there is a thought process his mind follows, as long as the variable stay the same he will always make the same decision. which means he never really had freedom to choose.
If it is really possible for us to make a different choice in the exact same situation, it leads to the conclusion that our 'choices' are directed by some random factor, and we're not really in control of the 'choices' we make. That's the antithesis of free will.
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14 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindspossibly, what ever decisions i make are the only decisions i was ever capable of making due to the chemical make up of my brain at the time i make them. i dont know what they are yet.
So are you saying that you are always going to reject the gift of eternal life, no matter what?
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieI think I understand now. You do not have a mind, but are controlled by chemical reactions in your brain. Okay, I get it.
possibly, what ever decisions i make are the only decisions i was ever capable of making due to the chemical make up of my brain at the time i make them. i dont know what they are yet.