19 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayI know , I've tried explaining this to whitey but he hangs on tenaciously to the idea that he is not hard wired or subject to chance and can make meaningful free decisions. Of course his experience of free will backs his position up but he still thinks it's not an illusion, when logically that's all it can be.
Making a choice is it simply a physical thing, or spiritual? If spiritual
do you think anything you could come up with in the physical realm
would be able to touch it as far as understanding it, or explaining it?
If it is physical as in your make up basically programs you to act one
way or another, than free will is not real, you are hard coded to act one
way or another.
Kelly
21 May 07
Because I "think" that I made a decision based on what I thought, do we really have any reason to think that there is not free will?
I wanted to write this post and I did. Does this mean I have free will. To me it seems like I did. I have no real reasoning to think otherwise so why think otherwise?
"I think, therefore I am" - Rene Descartes
21 May 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterWe seem to be going round and round in circles, partly because you are sticking to an illogical meaningless definition of free will and insisting that I experience it when I have repeatedly stated that I don't.
I know , I've tried explaining this to whitey but he hangs on tenaciously to the idea that he is not hard wired or subject to chance and can make meaningful free decisions. Of course his experience of free will backs his position up but he still thinks it's not an illusion, when logically that's all it can be.
SO to clear up my position in case you still haven't go it, here goes:
My brain is entirely natural and governed by the laws of physics.
It includes:
1. memories of information gathered during my lifetime.
2. data that is a result of extensive processing of that information including past decisions etc.
3. decision making machinery that analyzes information and outputs a decision. This also has some random inputs and other inputs such as hormones etc. The design of the decision making machinery is partly determined by my dna and partly by environment and partly by random inputs.
I believe that many of my day to day decisions are carried out on a sub-conscious level and that many of them have a significant random component. For example the exact wording I have used in this post to convey my meaning has some random elements to it and could have come out in quite a large variety of ways given the same initial inputs.
I believe that most of my major moral decisions have a much smaller random component in that I would not go out and murder someone but intentionally insulting someone is a definite possibility.
I believe that given a choice to make, and a given a rerun of the exact conditions I would make the same general decision again except for the random component.
I call this free will based on the belief that there is no external agent forcing the decision on me. I do not consider my own brain or the 'nature' that it consists of to be an external agent.
21 May 07
Originally posted by eagleeye222001But if you are a hard determinist for example then there is a real reason to think you don't have free will.
Because I "think" that I made a decision based on what I thought, do we really have any reason to think that there is not free will?
I wanted to write this post and I did. Does this mean I have free will. To me it seems like I did. I have no real reasoning to think otherwise so why think otherwise?
"I think, therefore I am" - Rene Descartes
21 May 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadQUOTE------------------------------
We seem to be going round and round in circles, partly because you are sticking to an illogical meaningless definition of free will and insisting that I experience it when I have repeatedly stated that I don't.
SO to clear up my position in case you still haven't go it, here goes:
My brain is entirely natural and governed by the laws of physics.
It ...[text shortened]... I do not consider my own brain or the 'nature' that it consists of to be an external agent.
"I believe that given a choice to make, and a given a rerun of the exact conditions I would make the same general decision again except for the random component.
I call this free will based on the belief that there is no external agent forcing the decision on me. I do not consider my own brain or the 'nature' that it consists of to be an external agent."
WHITEY
RESPONSE-----------------------------KM
This may be your belief but what you are ignoring is this. The question of whether it is an external agent or an internal agent that determines your behaviour is not relevant. What is relevant is whether the behaviour is determined or not. What difference does it make whether your brain is inside your body or outside it? It's a side issue! The key issue is the level of programming involved. A PC is not considered "free" because it's CPU is "inside" the casing. We say a PC is not free because it's just doing what it's programmed to do. And since you have already accepted we are just meat computers then you have to accept that your decisons are determined by your brain structure.
I also think the distinction between "forced" and determined is a completely false distinction. For free will you need more then one possible outcome so in that context forced or determined makes no difference. A determined decision is a forced decision anyway because you are not free to do otherwise.
BTW- Surely you should have said..... "given a rerun of the exact conditions I would make the EXACT same decision again except for the random component."
Notice how you couldn't quite bring yourself to say this even though it's far more consistent with your view. The word "general " betrays your need to keep alive some margin for a free will that you can't logically have. It's sloppy. You have to say "exact" otherwise you are not a meat computer anymore.
In any case , what you describe as free will is not the free will we experience. The free will we experience is one that gives us the feeling that we do have two or more very real possible actions that we could do and that it is us that needs to select one or the other. We do not experience these decisions as being determined (your view).
21 May 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI am more than happy with the word exact. My reason for using 'general' had to do with the random component.
BTW- Surely you should have said..... "given a rerun of the exact conditions I would make the EXACT same decision again except for the random component."
In any case , what you describe as free will is not the free will we experience. The free will we experience is one that gives us the feeling that we do have two or more very real possible actions that we could do and that it is us that needs to select one or the other. We do not experience these decisions as being determined (your view).
As usual you are contradicting yourself.
What I have described allows me, as a meat computer to have two real possible actions presented externally and for the meat computer (me) to make a choice. The fact that the meat computer may be programmed to always make the same choice given the set of initial conditions does not take away the choice. That is what I experience and that is what I call free will. Your repeated insistence that I have 'feelings' otherwise is false.
21 May 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadDo you make choices you do not want to make in spite of the desire
We seem to be going round and round in circles, partly because you are sticking to an illogical meaningless definition of free will and insisting that I experience it when I have repeatedly stated that I don't.
SO to clear up my position in case you still haven't go it, here goes:
My brain is entirely natural and governed by the laws of physics.
It ...[text shortened]... I do not consider my own brain or the 'nature' that it consists of to be an external agent.
to make them as lust, or have made choices in spite of the fact that
you will get nothing out of it and even get hurt by them, or the fact
that it would feel good, or the fact that everyone else tells you too?
Have you ever gone against everyone else that says do it, when the
pressure is on to act one way you see the need to act another? If
you do you have made a free will choice, if you only go with the
crowd, you only do what feels good, you only do what gets you
something out of it, you might have an argument suggesting you
never do anything out of the DNA code within you.
I write code from time to time, and if you are attempting to tell me
all your choices are the result of 'if, then, else’ statements you do not
have a clue. Coded responses may be what animals do when they
only behave out of instinct or training, You think because of Disney
science you may think of yourself as no different than an animal, but
I'm willing to bet you rise above such notions in reality even if you
don't want to admit it.
Kelly
21 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead[/b]So you are complaining that you have limited choices and that is what
I am more than happy with the word exact. My reason for using 'general' had to do with the random component.
[b]In any case , what you describe as free will is not the free will we experience. The free will we experience is one that gives us the feeling that we do have two or more very real possible actions that we could do and that it is us that needs ...[text shortened]... s what I call free will. Your repeated insistence that I have 'feelings' otherwise is false.
limits your view of 'free will'? Computers don't make choices, they do
what we set them up to do; making a random selection is much harder
to code than you realize. If they made choices when ever they wanted
than computers would no longer be useful, because they would not be
trustworthy. We use them the way we do, because they do not make
random choices when ever they desire, they are predictable.
Kelly
22 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayIts not entirely clear what you are trying to say. Are you saying that your brain will always tell you to follow the crowd? That you are programmed to do only what feels good? How do you know this?
Do you make choices you do not want to make in spite of the desire
to make them as lust, or have made choices in spite of the fact that
you will get nothing out of it and even get hurt by them, or the fact
that it would feel good, or the fact that everyone else tells you too?
Have you ever gone against everyone else that says do it, when the
pressure i ...[text shortened]... ing to bet you rise above such notions in reality even if you
don't want to admit it.
Kelly
I never said that all my decision were based on DNA. Read my posts again.
I am a full time programmer and I do have a clue.
And what is Disney science?
22 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't remember complaining about anything or even saying that we had limited choices. Sounds like you are inventing stuff.
So you are complaining that you have limited choices and that is what
limits your view of 'free will'?
Computers don't make choices, they do what we set them up to do; making a random selection is much harder to code than you realize. If they made choices when ever they wanted than computers would no longer be useful, because they would not be trustworthy. We use them the way we do, because they do not make random choices when ever they desire, they are predictable.
Kelly
I am a full time programmer and I can assure you that computers are as capable of making choices as you are and that the results are indistinguishable.
Random number generators are commonplace and used quite extensively.
Computers capable of making choices effectively on their own is a much sought after goal and such computers would not be useless as you claim. I have not however claimed that my choices are totally random (unlike yours) nor would I expect a computers to be either. Instead a random component is used. for example I would never tell a computer 'think of a random number', I would say 'think of a random number between one and ten'
22 May 07
3 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead[/b]I disagree that a computer is really making a choice, just as I don't
I don't remember complaining about anything or even saying that we had limited choices. Sounds like you are inventing stuff.
[b]Computers don't make choices, they do what we set them up to do; making a random selection is much harder to code than you realize. If they made choices when ever they wanted than computers would no longer be useful, because t ...[text shortened]... ter 'think of a random number', I would say 'think of a random number between one and ten'
think water when runs down hill is making a choice as to the path it
takes, it simply goes down where the landscape and gravity take it.
The computer does nothing but what we set it up to do the silicon,
Ohms law along with our programming will always determine what
the computer will do, when it will do it, and how it will do it.
Even our ‘random’ generators are if you look into them could use
some work. Do you call putting a computer in the position of
answering an ‘if, then, else’ making a choice? If computers were
actually making choices independently we could not depend on them
from behaving in predictable ways which would mean they would
lose their usefulness.
People on the other hand can choose in spite of what they are faced
with to behave in ways completely different from what the universe has
setup before them. You can have a rich person steal while a poor one
return found money, you can have a people lie when it adds nothing
to their lives, and someone speak the truth when it cost them
everything. Making a free will choice means just that, it doesn't depend
upon anything else, and will even with resistance against it, be able
to do the same. So simply having a command by God to act certain
way does not mean that we were not given the ability to choose, but
the means with which to make a choice.
Kelly
23 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayRandom generators are used extensively in computing. I use them myself. This means that some amount of unpredictability is useful.
Even our ‘random’ generators are if you look into them could use
some work. Do you call putting a computer in the position of
answering an ‘if, then, else’ making a choice? If computers were
actually making choices independently we could not depend on them
from behaving in predictable ways which would mean they would
lose their usefulness.
People on the other hand can choose in spite of what they are faced
with to behave in ways completely different from what the universe has
setup before them. You can have a rich person steal while a poor one
return found money, you can have a people lie when it adds nothing
to their lives, and someone speak the truth when it cost them
everything.
Now you are claiming to know how the universe has 'set people up'. Surely it is far more likely that you are wrong about how people are programmed than right that people are defying their programming. I certainly don't feel programmed to do what you are suggesting is my 'natural programming'.
Making a free will choice means just that, it doesn't depend
upon anything else, and will even with resistance against it, be able
to do the same.
Effectively you are saying a free will choice is a random choice. Knightmiester rejects this but is unable to say why. He just puts his hands over his ears and chants 'not random, not random'.
23 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead[/b]I'm not saying free will choice is random, I'm saying it is the choice
Random generators are used extensively in computing. I use them myself. This means that some amount of unpredictability is useful.
[b]People on the other hand can choose in spite of what they are faced
with to behave in ways completely different from what the universe has
setup before them. You can have a rich person steal while a poor one
return fo le to say why. He just puts his hands over his ears and chants 'not random, not random'.
you make, because you want to make it, and you do that with your
will freely no matter if there are pressures to cause you do something
one way or another. Random choices are not choices, they are random
and that typically means without cause, because if you assigned a
cause to an action it would not be random, but caused.
With regard to the universe setting up people to make choices, I was
pointing out that the easy way out isn’t always the way people choose
to go, they some times take the hard way because they believe that
to be the choice that matters more to them.
I’ll let knightmaster make his own points and defend his own points.
Kelly
23 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayI misunderstood you. However, you don't explain how your 'will' makes a choice. Is it programmed or random? Or are you going to play knightmeisters 'hide it in a black box and pretend it doesn't exist' game.
I'm not saying free will choice is random, I'm saying it is the choice
you make, because you want to make it, and you do that with your
will freely no matter if there are pressures to cause you do something
one way or another. Random choices are not choices, they are random
and that typically means without cause, because if you assigned a
cause to an action it would not be random, but caused.
With regard to the universe setting up people to make choices, I was
pointing out that the easy way out isn’t always the way people choose
to go, they some times take the hard way because they believe that
to be the choice that matters more to them.
Kelly
But you appear to be making the claim that the universe has programmed people to take the easy way. Yet you have not given any supporting evidence for such a claim. If we are programmed to take the hard choice then why not? In fact you have even stated that 'it matters more to them' so the if .. then .. else .. will clearly result in the hard choice as in:
IF (A matters more than B) THEN
DO (A)
ELSE
DO (B)
23 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead[/b]Let me think about your question a bit.
I misunderstood you. However, you don't explain how your 'will' makes a choice. Is it programmed or random? Or are you going to play knightmeisters 'hide it in a black box and pretend it doesn't exist' game.
[b]With regard to the universe setting up people to make choices, I was
pointing out that the easy way out isn’t always the way people choose
to result in the hard choice as in:
IF (A matters more than B) THEN
DO (A)
ELSE
DO (B)
Kelly