For RJHinds-yes Pre:rapture

Originally posted by sonship
Above we see there is no reason not to view the first four horses and riders of the Four Seals of the Seven Seals to not be representative of the last 20 centuries since the ascension of Christ.

What I am doing is leading up to defining when the great tribulation stars in [b]Revelation. This has to be understood in order to understand the early and ...[text shortened]... ents all of God's people from Genesis to the end of the Bible. She becomes New Jerusalem.[/b]

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

RJHinds writes

Revelation 12:5 New American Standard Bible NASB)

MAN-CHILD OR MALE CHILD IS ACUALLY NOT THERE IN THE GREEK TEXT FOR "child" IS ADDED THERE.

English Standard Version
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

New American Standard Bible
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

King James Bible
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But she gave birth to a Son--a male who is going to shepherd all nations with an iron scepter--and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

International Standard Version
She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne.

NET Bible
So the woman gave birth to a son, a male child, who is going to rule over all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And she delivered the Son, the Male who was to Shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron. And her Son was caught up to God and to his throne.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. Her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all the Gentiles with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne.

King James 2000 Bible
And she brought forth a male child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

American King James Version
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.

American Standard Version
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

Darby Bible Translation
And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne.

RJHinds writes:

There is also no "THEY" in the text.

New International Version
They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

New Living Translation
And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die.

English Standard Version
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

New American Standard Bible
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

King James Bible
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives in the face of death.

International Standard Version
Our brothers conquered him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not cling to their lives even in the face of death.

NET Bible
But they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And they were victorious by the blood of The Lamb and by the word of his testimony and they did not love their lives unto death.”

Revelation 12:10 (DARBY)
10 And I heard a great voice in the heaven saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out, who accused them before our God day and night:

Revelation 12:10 (DRA)
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:10 (ERV)

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “The victory and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah have now come. These things have come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown out. He is the one who accused them day and night before our God.

(ESV)
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Originally posted by sonship
RJHinds writes

Revelation 12:5 New American Standard Bible NASB)

MAN-CHILD OR MALE CHILD IS ACUALLY NOT THERE IN THE GREEK TEXT FOR "child" IS ADDED THERE.

[b]Reveation 12:5 in a few reputable English translations:

English Standard Version
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule ...[text shortened]... the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne.

[/b]

Originally posted by sonship
RJHinds writes:

There is also no "THEY" in the text.

[b]New International Version
They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

New Living Translation
And they have defeated him by the bloo ...[text shortened]... r brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

[/b]

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

RJHinds writes:

There is also no "THEY" in the text.

Originally posted by sonship

RJHinds writes:

There is also no "THEY" in the text.

We have to be careful not to violate the warning of [b]Revelation 22:19

" If anyone takes AWAY from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life .... etc. "

By saying that in Revelation 12 "they" is not ...[text shortened]... small group of overcomers is seen quite succintly in that story.

Judges 6:1 - 8:32 .[/b]

Anyone else have any comments, opinions, questions for myself ?

The subject Pre- great tribulation Rapture.

Originally posted by sonship
Anyone [b]else have any comments, opinions, questions for myself ?

The subject Pre- great triublation Rapture.
I teach selective rapture Pre and Post GT.[/b]

The man-child is brought forth by the women " and her child [obviously the man-child ] was caught up to God and to His throne." (See Rev. 12:5)

The Child is not Christ:

1.) Jesus Christ was Mary's firstborn. But this mother has already had other seed (v.17).

"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus." (v.17)

When Christ was born there were no other children of Mary.

2.) Even when regarding woman as Israel rather than Mary, the Child still could not be Christ. When Christ was born there may have been Jews who were seeking to keep the commandments of God but there were none who had the testimony of Jesus yet.

3.) Christ had already been caught up to God's throne about 20 centuries before this prophecy, which, as so much of the book of Revelation has not yet been prophetically fulfilled.

4.) As the mother of the "man-child" is figurative, like mother - like child. The child also is figurative and therefore is not Christ.

5.) The figurative man-child is to "shepherd all nations with an iron rod" means people designated by Christ to do as HE Himself will do -

"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

We know that those during the great tribulation who are martyred will live again and reign with Christ -

" ... those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4b)

But we have to admit that these lived again and were raptured and assigned to reign with Christ BEFORE the thousand two hundred sixty days of the great tribulation -

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (vs. 5,6)

Therefore in addition to overcomers martyred during the GT these are assigned to reign BEFORE the GT. They probably include Paul himself who said -

"If we endure, we will also reign with Him ..." (2 Timothy 2:12a). And of course the GT had not begun by the time Paul made that promise.

That the constituents of this man-child have already endured in ages BEFORE the GT is proved by verse 11 - " ... and they loved not their soul-life even unto death" .

This faithfulness unto death was accomplished by the "THEY" before the thousand two hundred and sixty days starts. And the havoc that the dragon wreaks on earth is anterior to them being raptured -

" ... and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has COME DOWN TO YOU and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (vs.11b,12)

So the man-child is not the Lord Jesus. But we COULD say that the man-child is the Lord Jesus who has been dispensed into and distributed into the enduring overcoming saints.

To whom do the plural pronouns refer to in Revelation 12:10,11 ?

They must refer to that which has just arrived in heaven - the man-child.

It is at the expulsion of the Devil and his angels that the voice in heaven proclaims rejoicing words that "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down ..." (v.10)

"And THEY over came him because of the blood of the Lamb ..." - the "they" have just arrived in heaven and to the throne of God.

" ... and because of the word of THEIR testimony ..." "THEIR testimony" meaning the testimony of the ones who have just arrived in heaven being raptured.

" ... and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death" - That is the ones who have just arrived in heaven being resurrected and raptured to the throne of God.

Christians speak much about dying and going to heaven. Actually God has absolutely no intention of taking to heaven anyone who really doesn't want to be there. You cannot fool God.

Revelation 12:5, 10,11 is not that taking to heaven people who really do not want to be there. Rather it is the rapture of some minority of overcoming saints who through grace prevailed to be victorious in Christ - they lived on earth but were really a heavenly people.

And in them the Devil's mouth was shut. Their rapture prior to a thousand two hundred and sixty days is the coming of "the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ" .

This is all according to God's original intention in the creation of human beings to begin with. He created man to bear His image and to exercise His dominion, especially His dominion over His enemy.

Finally a group of these who have harmonized with God original intention in creation in Genesis 1:26,27, through Jesus Christ, fulfill His heart's desire as a representative beach head.

As Gideon's little army, their victory is not for themselves alone. It is for the entire body of God's people. This is why they are seen coming from the universally bright woman. She was with child (12:2). This means that within the woman is man-child. Within the totality of God's people is that overcoming component as a Gideon's little army.

For the sake of the majority, a minority of stronger ones, overcome. And they through Christ bring in the kingdom age.

Originally posted by sonship
The [b]man-child is brought forth by the women " and her child [obviously the man-child ] was caught up to God and to His throne." (See Rev. 12:5)

The Child is not Christ:

1.) Jesus Christ was Mary's firstborn. But this mother has already had other seed (v.17).

"And the dragon became angry with the ...[text shortened]... the Lord Jesus who has been dispensed into and distributed into the enduring overcoming saints.

A "woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head" is seen (Revelation 12:1). According to Genesis 37:9,10, these represented the first family of Israel: Jacob (the "sun" ), Rachel (the "moon" ), and Jacob's twelve sons (the "twelve stars" ). So the Woman represents the nation of Israel and not specifically the mother of Jesus.

John noted that the woman "gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter" (Revelation 12:5). Loosely speaking, this "son" could represent Judah, since Jacob (also named "Israel" ) prophesied that his son Judah would be associated with the "scepter"—a symbol of governance, rule, and law (Genesis 49:10). More specifically, the son of the woman was Jesus Christ. He is the descendant of Judah who will rule the nations "with an iron scepter" when He comes (Psalm 2 and Revelation 19:15).

Originally posted by sonship
To whom do the plural pronouns refer to in [b]Revelation 12:10,11 ?

They must refer to that which has just arrived in heaven - the man-child.

It is at the expulsion of the Devil and his angels that the voice in heaven proclaims rejoicing words that "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority ...[text shortened]... jority, a minority of stronger ones, overcome. And they through Christ bring in the kingdom age.

Why are you playing dumb like FMF? It should have been obvious I was referring to the text of Revelation 12:5 about the male child not the entire book of Revelation.

As I already pointed out, the words "THEY" and "THEIR" refer to the brethren in the faith that are martyred by the Jihad of Satan.

The man-child is NOT a corporate entity. The Son, a male refers to the Christ child, born of a woman of Israel and He is destined to rule the government with a rod of iron when He returns from being caught up to the throne of God.

Concerning the Firstfruits and the Man-child:

Since the two groups are raptured before the great tribulation it is interesting to see what is the difference between them.

In Revelation 12 the emphasis is the corporate man-child's rapture because of strategic advantage in spiritual warfare.

In Revelation 14 the emphasis is the corporate firstfruits's rapture purely for the Lamb's and the Father's satisfaction.

1.) The rapture of the man-child (Rev.12) highlights that the result is the good angels receive the command to war with the Devil and his angels to drive the down to the earth only.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child ... (v.5) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. (v.7,8)

Warfare, tactical victory, strategic advantage, and defeat of principalities and powers in the heavenlies is the emphasis with this rapture. For the saints do not war against flesh and blood.

"For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of t his darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies." (Ephesians 6:12)

This is why the ministering servants of the saints are mentioned, the good angels waring on our behalf. "Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation ?" (Hebrews 1:14)

So when these overcoming saints are raptured, they probably give the very command to the ministering servants to drive Satan away.

IE. "What are you doing here Devil ? We overcame you on the earth. We conquered you while living by Christ when on earth. Now we have come up here to heaven! You have no place up here. You can no longer be up here."

The good angels drive Satan down and the loud voice in heaven proclaims -

"Now has come SALVATION and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down ..." (v.10a)

2.) The rapture of the firstfruits (Rev. 14) emphasizes the pure satisfaction of the Father and the Son at their overcoming and arrival. The firstfruits in the OT were brought into the temple before the full harvest and waved before God. That is why they were called firstfruits - because in ripening they were the first.

The rapture of the firstfruits says nothing about them reigning, ruling, or shepherding the nations. It is not that they do not. But the emphasis is that the Father is satisfied with the enjoyment of them.

So we can see two aspects of early rapture:

1.) It tips the balance in favor of the kingdom of God in the strategic advantage in spiritual warfare.

2.) If is a great satisfaction to the Lamb and His Father that a remnant have lived so richly in the realm of Their Divine life.

One other important distinction is had between the two, the man-child and the firstfruits.

1.) The overcoming of the man-child happened in times past and they are resurrected - "for they loved not their soul -life even unto death" (12:11b). They had died before the last days of the church age. Yet God was so greatly pleased with their victory.

2.) The overcoming of the firstfruits is while they are yet still living up to the time of their rapture. These are saints who will literally never taste physical death. Like Enoch, they live and walk right into the third heavens. With them too God is exceedingly pleased.

Thier arrival in rapture though is before the great tribulation. Afterwards the saints then alive and left remaining also join them latter in the harvest (Rev. 14:14-16; 1 Thess. 4:15-17)

Originally posted by sonship

Revelation 12:5
New International Version
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

New Living Translation
She gave birth to a son who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne.

English Standard Version
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

New American Standard Bible
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

King James Bible
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But she gave birth to a Son--a male who is going to shepherd all nations with an iron scepter--and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

International Standard Version
She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne.

NET Bible
So the woman gave birth to a son, a male child, who is going to rule over all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And she delivered the Son, the Male who was to Shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron. And her Son was caught up to God and to his throne.