For Better or Worse

Originally posted by vistesd
I confess that I am confused.

“There has occurred at least one event E such that E brought about unnecessary suffering; suffering not logically necessary for the bringing about of greater good.”

[b][/i]In your view, has there or has there not ever occurred such an event?[/i]

As LJ points out, the deductive argument is valid. So, if you ...[text shortened]... I thought so, and was not challenged by any additional offerings) in order to take a position.][/b]

This is a question for everyone, not vistesd because I'm using his post to respond.

How do we know what is and is not unnecessary suffering?

If I cause someone to suffer some could claim that was unnecessary, yet the
suffering reveals my bad actions for what they were, bad. Wouldn't than the
suffering not really be unnecessary but a revelation of what bad behavior really is?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
This is a question for everyone, not vistesd because I'm using his post to respond.

How do we know what is and is not unnecessary suffering?

If I cause someone to suffer some could claim that was unnecessary, yet the
suffering reveals my bad actions for what they were, bad. Wouldn't than the
suffering not really be unnecessary but a revelation of what bad behavior really is?
Kelly

Indeed KellyJay

I do not believe in the concept of "unnecessary suffering." Again, unless God is not as described in the bible, any event that causes a relevant degree of suffering, has occured with God's foreknowledge and foreordination.

Originally posted by sumydid
Indeed KellyJay

I do not believe in the concept of "unnecessary suffering." Again, unless God is not as described in the bible, any event that causes a relevant degree of suffering, has occured with God's foreknowledge and foreordination.

This is a straightforward question. I ask it because others in the past have seemed to waffle on this a bit, preferring to focus on cases where particular persons suffer due to the consequences of their own actions.

Is it your view that the suffering of a newborn child with a severely painful and incurable disease (there appear to be several) is logically necessary for the ultimate greater good, or the optimum good from God’s point of view—if only we knew all the facts?

Originally posted by vistesd
This is a straightforward question. I ask it because others in the past have seemed to waffle on this a bit, preferring to focus on cases where particular persons suffer due to the consequences of their own actions.

Is it your view that the suffering of a newborn child with a severely painful and incurable disease (there appear to be several) is logicall ...[text shortened]... timate greater good, or the optimum good from God’s point of view—if only we knew all the facts?

If you look at suffering from a high level, we know that it teaches us...don't touch
that hot stove! So if we see that the things we do cause suffering, you'd think
that we'd learn from those things if we really cared about causing others to suffer.
If that is true than suffering is a teacher of sorts we can learn from it. It does
show us a little something of the hearts of those that take pleasure in the
suffering of others as well.

With respect to the suffering of newborns it would make us look at root causes of
things that may be the cause of the disease, or how its passed from one to another.
Kelly

Originally posted by vistesd
This is a straightforward question. I ask it because others in the past have seemed to waffle on this a bit, preferring to focus on cases where particular persons suffer due to the consequences of their own actions.

Is it your view that the suffering of a newborn child with a severely painful and incurable disease (there appear to be several) is logicall ...[text shortened]... timate greater good, or the optimum good from God’s point of view—if only we knew all the facts?

I don't believe it is necessary per sé, as God presumably could just snap His fingers and take us instantly toward the greater good.

I believe that suffering is the inevitable result of our state of affairs, individually and expanding outward to include the entire cosmos. We were plunged into a state of imminent, unavoidable suffering, because our nature is to be autonomous which necessarily means to be without God.

I believe when it comes to the thing that matters most -- our individual salvation -- God is directly involved. In everything else, I believe God lets it play out without intervening directly, but does inspire folks to do things, and in other cases hands them over to their own desires.

When it comes to the suffering of any infant or person through no effort or mistake on their own, I believe it is the result of the condition of man and the condition of creation. All things considered, if an infant suffers, then dies -- it crosses over to the spiritual realm and then experiences what really matters; and ultimately, the suffering he/she endured in this existence will be like a fleeting, hardly memorable dream. It's not as though heaven is going to be filled with people who spend all their time mulling over all the suffering they experienced as humans.

Originally posted by sumydid
I don't believe it is necessary per sé, as God presumably could just snap His fingers and take us instantly toward the greater good.

I believe that suffering is the inevitable result of our state of affairs, individually and expanding outward to include the entire cosmos. We were plunged into a state of imminent, unavoidable suffering, because our nature ...[text shortened]... ith people who spend all their time mulling over all the suffering they experienced as humans.

This is one of the most wonderful affirmations of faith that I have ever seen.

"We were plunged into a state of imminent, unavoidable suffering, because our nature is to be autonomous which necessarily means to be without God."

Whence cometh our nature?

Originally posted by JS357
This is one of the most wonderful affirmations of faith that I have ever seen.

"We were plunged into a state of imminent, unavoidable suffering, because our nature is to be autonomous which necessarily means to be without God."

Whence cometh our nature?

We were created and Adam took us into sin through his lusts, we were not setup
like that in the beginning, but went there through Adam's choices.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We were created and Adam took us into sin through his lusts, we were not setup
like that in the beginning, but went there through Adam's choices.
Kelly

So humanity is experiencing 'collective punishment'?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So humanity is experiencing 'collective punishment'?

I'd say the punishment is coming, right now we are simply living with the fruit
of our lives.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'd say the punishment is coming, right now we are simply living with the fruit
of our lives.
Kelly

I didn't take a bite from the fruit, so how is it anything to do with me?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I didn't take a bite from the fruit, so how is it anything to do with me?

'sins of the father' and all that buisness. i think we should take a leaf out of gods book and when somebody commits a crime we should lock up the criminal and all future generations of his family. its the only way they'll learn.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
'sins of the father' and all that buisness. i think we should take a leaf out of gods book and when somebody commits a crime we should lock up the criminal and all future generations of his family. its the only way they'll learn.

If your condemned for someone else's sins you I think will have a just complaint,
but I don't think that is something you'll see. Instead, you'll see we are all sinners
and will be held for our own sins.
Kelly

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I didn't take a bite from the fruit, so how is it anything to do with me?

Have you ever lied, or done anything else that would be false? Have you done
anything to anyone not out of love? Have you ever held someone else guilty
for something you do or have done? If yes to any the fruit is the least of your
concern.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Have you ever lied, or done anything else that would be false? Have you done
anything to anyone not out of love? Have you ever held someone else guilty
for something you do or have done? If yes to any the fruit is the least of your
concern.
Kelly

I take, and will take, responsibility for my own actions. But how is something that (allegedly) happened a few thousand years anything to do with me?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Have you ever lied, or done anything else that would be false? Have you done
anything to anyone not out of love? Have you ever held someone else guilty
for something you do or have done? If yes to any the fruit is the least of your
concern.
Kelly

do you see how to have such black and white rules to sin would be ridiculous.

1 - not all lies are bad - does god cry when i tell my kids santa is real?
2 - its impossible to do everything out of love - it would be weird if people did and would render love meaningless.
3 - if a farted and blamed it on my son, is this a bit of fun or would god be outraged.

life is to complex to have such basic rules.