Fine-tuning of the Universe for life

Originally posted by sonship

]First of all, the Fibonacci sequence has good reason for being involved in life and nature.

First of all it should have no "good reason" to be involved in life and nature according to atheism because no "reason" was involved in the emergence of life. It was a purely mindless and unguided matter with no reasoning mind involved.

No mind involved means no reason involved.

Not even a logical reason? 😕

Originally posted by sonhouse
You are in for a rude awakening someday. But it wouldn't do any good anyway, you would just rationalize it all away when there IS life discovered elsewhere off Earth. "Oh, that just means my god is greater than I thought'' or some such rot.

I know already that I have underestimated how great my God is so that will not be a rude awakening. However, I believe God would have informed us if He also created physical living creatures elsewhere in the heavens, especially as close to the Earth as Mars.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Not even a logical reason? 😕

The reason we can read design out of nature is because design was reasoned into it.

You would be hard pressed to explain how and unguided, purposeless, goalless, self "organizing somehow re-used a scheme like the "Golden Mean" across varied biological structures.

How would evolution decide " This is so useful - unguided, use it here, and here, and here again."

I find it easier to imagine such a repetitive scheme came out of a creative and designing reasoning intelligence.

Originally posted by sonship
No mind involved means no reason involved.

Playing with words to avoid addressing the point I see. Whenever you do that, you subtly admit that you know you are wrong.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Playing with words to avoid addressing the point I see. Whenever you do that, you subtly admit that you know you are wrong.

You should learn to make this accusation rhyme somehow if you intend to repeat it. Repeat it some more, just make it rhyme.

Do I ignore you sometimes? Yes I do. I don't like to follow the "logic" of people who think it is significant that a six sided die sitting on a table at six has a probability of being 6 at 1. That is just too slimy a "contribution" to a discussion on probabilities in the creation event.

If you weren't so slimy maybe you wouldn't be so ignored.

You "played" with words by suggesting there was good reason for Fibonacci sequence to be involved with nature. You want to believe in a mindless, goalless, unintelligent process but you want to play with words that there is a good reason something was involved.

Whose good reason involved it ?

Originally posted by sonship
You should learn to make this accusation rhyme somehow if you intend to repeat it. Repeat it some more, just make it rhyme.

Do I ignore you sometimes? Yes I do. I don't like to follow the "logic" of people who think it is significant that a six sided die sitting on a table at six has a probability of being 6 at 1. That is just too slimy a "contribution" ...[text shortened]... th words that there is a good reason something was involved.

Whose good reason involved it ?

Well here is the truth: Life forms on Earth are nothing special, since species come and go like clockwork. Humankind themselves are 100% responsible for the latest craze in extinctions and humankind is no more special than any other and could go just like the dinosaurs but with a lot shorter lifespan as a species than most any dinosaur who lived here for literally a hundred million years and more. We have been around a pathetic 3 million years max and could go out like a snuffed candle at any time and no god will reach out in spite of the fact we consider ourselves the crown of creation. We are NOT the crown of creation in fact we are the crown of destruction as it applies to other life forms on the planet.

It there WERE a god overlooking Earth, it would undoubtedly off humans before we off the entire planet.

We are nothing special here in spite of the OCD of religion that they falsely put humanity on some kind of pedestal who has the ear of god.

When the last human dies off, what if that human was you, would you still think some god will be coming down to fix all the boo boo's humans caused and restore them to supremacy again after we are fully showing we have failed miserably in the shepherding of Earth that your bible has given us as a goal.

Humans are the cause of the 6th major extinction going on right under our noses and you think if a god made Earth and sees all that, don't you think said god would be a little ticked off?

Just one more indication to me that since no god is appearing to show its displeasure at our shepherding of Earth, that we are failing at so miserably, it just says if there is a god it doesn't give a rats ass what happens to humans and Earth.

If there is a god, it would already know we are failing at that job.

No word from that god?

Just says their ain't no god that thinks humans are something special.

Only in our imaginations are we special.

Originally posted by sonhouse

Well here is the truth: Life forms on Earth are nothing special, since species come and go like clockwork. Humankind themselves are 100% responsible for the latest craze in extinctions and humankind is no more special than any other and could go just like the dinosaurs but with a lot shorter lifespan as a species than most any dinosaur who lived here for literally a hundred million years and more. We have been around a pathetic 3 million years max and could go out like

I think if we take a strictly non-sentimental look at matter, involving no emotional bais, life is special.

Now when I say special I mean that it would have been astronomically easier for a life probiting universe to have come about rather than a life-permitting one given the narrow range of factors that gave rise to life's existence.

This is not a sentimental special. This special in that vastly greater instances could have come about where life would have been prohibited from existing. The range of possible values of many variables was very narrow that life arose.

It would also be a non-sentimental evaluation of the "special" nature of human life, in this century, because apparently nothing else like humans can we so far find in the solar system. Now if each of the eight planets and their numerous moons were inhabited with intelligent beings like us, then that might reduce the sense of specialty somewhat -

Ie. "What's so special about people ? We have them on Venus, Mercury, the Moon, out there on all the astreriods, and on the other planets with all their moons all the way out to the Oort Cloud. So what's all this about we're special."

More plenteous occurrence of beings like us would somewhat dampen the sense of a non-sentimental specialness of higher intelligent life, at least in our local accessible solar system.

In absence of this, I think it is realistic to understand we are special in a sense of rare.

a snuffed candle at any time and no god will reach out in spite of the fact we consider ourselves the crown of creation. We are NOT the crown of creation in fact we are the crown of destruction as it applies to other life forms on the planet.

I am trying to think "special" or "not special" in a non-sentimental non-emotional sense. We are rare - special. Can this be denied ?

A grain of sand, in this sense, is not special.
A diamond, in this sense, is more special.

Put aside "crown of creation" and all that for a moment.
We are the "rarity of creation."

We are nothing special here in spite of the OCD of religion that they falsely put humanity on some kind of pedestal who has the ear of god.

Put religion aside as well as humanism. Apparently the range values of many constants and quantities were severely constrained to allow a particularly peculiar state in the universe which allows life, particularly higher life, to exist.

I assume that a universe permitting only say the tineist bacteria may have been less constrained in its initial parameters. But I am not a biologist.

When the last human dies off, what if that human was you, would you still think some god will be coming down to fix all the boo boo's humans caused and restore them to supremacy again after we are fully showing we have failed miserably in the shepherding of Earth that your bible has given us as a goal.

What I am exploring now is neither human over appreciation or self contempt. It seems this post of yours is mostly about a self contempt argument for the non-speciality of life and people, with a blame the Bible as an extra objection.

Humans are the cause of the 6th major extinction ...

etc. etc. etc. etc.

Just one more indication to me that since no god ...

etc. etc. etc. etc.

More life is not special and blame god self contempt.

If there is a god, it would already know we are failing at that job.

etc. etc. etc.
So man is not special. I got it.

Only in our imaginations are we special.

This post reminds me of a scribble on a bathroom wall I read in college. Some poor unhappy student wrote - "This galaxy sucks."

Obviously he just felt like such a looser who didn't quite know who to blame. Maybe the whole galaxy just was not good as some other one he should have existed in.

The evaluation of life as "special" in an improbable rather than sentimental sense is noticed because the fantastically more probable would have been a life prohibiting universe. That is of many independent variables had not fallen into a tiny range. The multiplicity of constants "luckily" seemed to land in a skinny scope to permit the kind of universe we see and can see.

"Man's no good!" just doesn't dull this sense of an exceedingly perculiar coincidence allowed man to be here to BE no good in the first place.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Well here is the truth: Life forms on Earth are nothing special, since species come and go like clockwork. Humankind themselves are 100% responsible for the latest craze in extinctions and humankind is no more special than any other and could go just like the dinosaurs but with a lot shorter lifespan as a species than most any dinosaur who lived here ...[text shortened]... sense of an exceedingly perculiar coincidence allowed man to be here TO suck in the first place.

The whole point is a god, an omniscient god like you think of in the bible, would have never made a race of beings it knew in advance would fail.

Since we are here, since we ARE failing miserably at keeping the planet together, that alone is proof enough no god thought us up.

If it did, it would be a pretty pathetic god that couldn't see we have failed already.

Our whole civilization is a failure, we are just too stupid as a race to see it.

Consumerism rampant, build more plants that make more junk, more necklaces girls get at Mardi gras for baring their tits. With humans using up natural resources for such utterly stupid things, how long do you think we can keep this up? Think about all the crap you see at dime stores and such, whole cities in China given over to producing useless toys that get thrown away a week later because the kid grows tired of it because there are so many new toys.
We just can't keep on doing that kind of thing forever, we are already using up 50% of Earth's resources for all this junk, it has to come to a screeching halt, probably the hard way, at some point in the future and we will be back to carving little wooden dolls like our ancestors did and digging in the ground for grubs and a human population of 10 million instead of 10 billion.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The whole point is a god, an omniscient god like you think of in the bible, would have never made a race of beings it knew in advance would fail.

Since we are here, since we ARE failing miserably at keeping the planet together, that alone is proof enough no god thought us up.

If it did, it would be a pretty pathetic god that couldn't see we have failed already.

I think your post misses the point here. You have labored to essentially say "O Yea? Well I don't like your Fine Tuner if He exists."

But an Fine Tuner that you think is incompotent is still a Fine Tuner.

So your point is a bit off the point. But I understand you. If you look back, say, over the last 365 days of your life from this moment, there is NO day or moment of any time in which you could have possibly said "God, I thank you at least for this."

No thanks to God for your sound body, shelter, healthy mind, working limbs, many happy days to pursue the things you like to do, no thanksgiving whatsoever for anything in any way for any angle of your life.

Instead only venomous hatred for the very concept of God.
You will not be struck by lightening.

But your attitude does remind me - "When a man's way brings him to ruin his heart rages against the Lord."

Originally posted by sonship
The reason we can read design out of nature is because design was reasoned into it.

You would be hard pressed to explain how and unguided, purposeless, goalless, self "organizing somehow re-used a scheme like the "Golden Mean" across varied biological structures.

How would evolution decide " This is so useful - unguided, use it here, and here, and ...[text shortened]... to imagine such a repetitive scheme came out of a creative and designing reasoning intelligence.

How did evolution decide? Crikey you are confused. That's like asking 'how did this mountain decide to be the shape it is'?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
How did evolution decide? Crikey you are confused. That's like asking 'how did this mountain decide to be the shape it is'?

How did evolution decide? Crikey you are confused. That's like asking 'how did this mountain decide to be the shape it is'?

Not only "How did it decide?" but how did it "select" anything ?

Originally posted by sonship

How did evolution decide? Crikey you are confused. That's like asking 'how did this mountain decide to be the shape it is'?

Not only "How did it decide?" but how did it [b]"select" anything ?[/b]

it didnt 'select' or 'decide' anything. 'mountain' is just a word to describe a specific formation of matter. matter that has formed a shape due to the pushing and pulling of the fundamental forces of nature.

Originally posted by sonship
I think your post misses the point here. You have labored to essentially say "O Yea? Well I don't like your Fine Tuner if He exists."

But an Fine Tuner that you think is incompotent is still a Fine Tuner.

So your point is a bit off the point. But I understand you. If you look back, say, over the last 365 days of your life from this moment, there is ...[text shortened]... does remind me - [b]"When a man's way brings him to ruin his heart rages against the Lord." [/b]

I never rage against the Lord. That would be admitting I thought there was one. I rage against the people who invented your Lord. It was 100% man made to control an unruly population and not even original, they stole the 7 day creation story from the Egyptians. Surely if they were creative at all, they could have come up with their own bogus creation story.

Originally posted by sonship
Do I ignore you sometimes? Yes I do. I don't like to follow the "logic" of people who think it is significant that a six sided die sitting on a table at six has a probability of being 6 at 1. That is just too slimy a "contribution" to a discussion on probabilities in the creation event.

Someone explains a basic fact of probability and its a 'slimy contribution'?
Come on, you know thats just plain unfair.

You "played" with words by suggesting there was good reason for Fibonacci sequence to be involved with nature.
No, I did not. It is you, who deliberately chose to misunderstand my meaning.
If I said 'there is a good reason why objects fall when you drop them' would you similarly jump the the conclusion that since gravity is a 'reason' therefore God did it?

No, you simply think that side tracking the discussion will get you out of answering questions that you find difficult.
Avoiding difficult questions is a sign that you know you are wrong, but do not want to admit it. Calling me 'slimy' simply does not get you out of this accusation.
Earlier in the thread you said to me:
[quote]Its a waiting for your truth side to come out.
I don't think you have a truth side to finally come out.[/b]

So lets find out who really doesn't have a 'truth side'.
Heres my challenge: we each as the other 10 direct questions and we each attempt to give honest answers to those questions.
Are you up for the challenge?
I fully realize, that one or both of us may lie in our responses, but refusing to answer is as dishonest as you can get, so if one of us refuses to answer, then we can judge that person to be the most dishonest. Don't you agree?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
it didnt 'select' or 'decide' anything. 'mountain' is just a word to describe a specific formation of matter. matter that has formed a shape due to the pushing and pulling of the fundamental forces of nature.

it didnt 'select' or 'decide' anything. 'mountain' is just a word to describe a specific formation of matter. matter that has formed a shape due to the pushing and pulling of the fundamental forces of nature.

I could not believe that the four faces on Mt. Rushmore could have been formed by the pushing and pulling of the fundamental forces of nature on the gravel and stones of that mountain.

Why should I believe that the DNA molecule common to all life forms was the result of the pushing and pulling of the fundamental forces of nature - unguided, unpurposed, unplanned, unintelligently brought about ?