02 Nov 08
8 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnasSome would say that it takes faith to believe in God, however, did not people in the Bible like Adam and Eve know that God was real, yet they lost faith in him. Did not the children of Israel know that God was real, assuming of course the Red Sea split in two before them and they saw manna come down from heaven etc, yet they lost faith and built a golden calf to worship instead.
I invite KellyJay, but also others, in a discussion about faith.
Is faith more or less important than hard facts. If you see something and sccience disporve it, then what is more important, your faith or the solid science?
If two persons faiths contradict eachother, can the two faiths coexist, mutually excluding eachother? Or must it be so that one ...[text shortened]... one give a clear cut definition of 'faith'? Is it possible...?
Okay, JK, let's talk faith!
When talking about God, it is assumed that such an entity is head and shoulders above us in terms of intellect and insight, therefore, if this is true then any interactions with him must take this into consideration, thus faith is born. In effect, faith in God is merely acknowledging the fact that he sees past our blind spots, so to speak. In addition, and perhaps more importantly, it is the acknowledgment that he loves us and only wants what is best for us. It is one thing to see all and know all but this does us no good unless such a force is benevolent. So I guess what I am trying to say is, is that faith is relational in nature. We only place our faith in people or forces we trust or place value in. Those people or things we place no value in or trust have no place in our lives no matter how smart or all knowing they may be. Having said that, in order to relate to God one MUST place their faith in him if he is going to have any place in thier lives.
Having said all that, however, I suspect the real question is, how can I know God is real? I just wanted to drive home the point that just because you may know God is real does not mean you place your faith in him.
02 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnasno, i have quite clearly demonstrated, with respect to Christians that this view of faith is erroneous, it is NOT a belief for which there is NO relevant evidence, this is quite wrong, it may be a satisfactory definition for atheists etc etc, but not for Christians.
That's what I've been asking for. And recieved. And this faith seems to be a religious idea.
Faith for me is when you believe something without having observations or proofs that confirms it.
Do I have faith in atoms? No, because I believe in the proofs for their existance.
Do I have faith in that one day we can travel to other stars? Yes, because in a religious way. Okay by me. But I define religion in a way where faith has no meaning.
02 Nov 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasno, this is another instance of a ,''christian'' (i use the term generally for nominal Christians, in your case quite apt), misquoting and erroneously misapplying biblical verses. the scripture at Philippians 4:7 has nothing to do with anything in this context, it reads the 'peace', of god that excels all thought, 'not faith', as you have erroneously stated.
The faith spoken of in the Bible is supernatural and surpasses all understanding (Phil. 4:7). It comes about as a response to hearing the Gospel (Rom. 10:17). It's a mystery why some believe the Gospel and others do not (Rom. 9:15). Faith is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8).
Faith, biblically speaking, is definitely not a mere mental assent which can be ...[text shortened]... o bring human wisdom to naught and to demonstrate His power in those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21).
once again Romans 9:15 has NOTHING to do with the discussion, it reads, 'For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion''. here different qualities are being discussed, the verse say NOTHING about faith.
how you can infer from James 2:19, which states nothing about science nor philosophical discussion is beyond reasoning, for it reads, 'Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble''.
and while the verse at 1 Corinthians dose state that those who show a reliance on secularism are foolish, it does not negate the wonderful achievements of science, nor of advancements in many other fields. Science and the bible are not diametrically opposed in many fields, and in fact, in many instances completely harmonize.
please if you are to represent Christ, do not misquote and misapply scripture to suit your argument, truth is truth, and a Christian does not need to resort to deception, The Bible itself gives the definition of faith, (Hebrews 11:1), not a mystery, not for a select preordained number, not devoid of reason, but firmly based on the assurances and knowledge contained in the inspired record, Gods Word the bible.
02 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNot sure that you are entirely correct here Robbie.
no, i have quite clearly demonstrated, with respect to Christians that this view of faith is erroneous, it is NOT a belief for which there is NO relevant evidence, this is quite wrong, it may be a satisfactory definition for atheists etc etc, but not for Christians.
Not everything has the relevant evidence, (although some things do) and the faith of a Christian needs to be partially blind.
Remember this story about Thomas:
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach [hither] thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
30 Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
02 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999have a think about this Raj my friend, this in no way negates anything i have said, is it reasonable to expect a christian, or anyone for that matter to put faith in something for which there is no evidence ?, no, not according to Hebrews chapter 11 it is not (an explanation of which has already been given). it was the realities of Gods word, the truths contained within on which a Christian bases his faith, by way of example, none of us were present when Christ was executed by the Romans, however when we consider the biblical record, concerning the events and particular details, we come to realize that these events are not fabricated, the details, the customs, the testimony of the witnesses etc etc, all of this coupled with secular history, archeological studies etc etc all lead us to this conclusion, thus although we were not present, we can have Faith that these things were so based on evidence, this is something entirely different from a blind faith, would you not agree?
Not sure that you are entirely correct here Robbie.
Not everything has the relevant evidence, (although some things do) and the faith of a Christian needs to be partially blind.
Remember this story about Thomas:
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach [hither] thy hand, and put it into my side: and be ...[text shortened]... lieve that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
02 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieno, this is another instance of a ,''christian'' (i use the term generally for nominal Christians, in your case quite apt), misquoting and erroneously misapplying biblical verses.
no, this is another instance of a ,''christian'' (i use the term generally for nominal Christians, in your case quite apt), misquoting and erroneously misapplying biblical verses. the scripture at Philippians 4:7 has nothing to do with anything in this context, it reads the 'peace', of god that excels all thought, 'not faith', as you have erroneousl ...[text shortened]... he assurances and knowledge contained in the inspired record, Gods Word the bible.
I didn't quote any verses, so how could have misquoted any?
Whether I misapplied any verses is fair game, but why the insulting attitude?
Philippians 4:7 has nothing to do with anything in this context, it reads the 'peace', of god that excels all thought, 'not faith', as you have erroneously stated.
So the peace which passes all understanding has nothing to do with faith? How so?
Romans 9:15 has NOTHING to do with the discussion, it reads, 'For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion''. here different qualities are being discussed, the verse say NOTHING about faith.
Faith is a gift from God, is it not?
how you can infer from James 2:19, which states nothing about science nor philosophical discussion is beyond reasoning, for it reads, 'Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble''.
It is not beyond reasoning.
The faith which the devils have is not the same faith which James says is necessary for salvation. The faith of devils is a mere mental assent, while the faith of Christ is something which produces fruit. A philosopher could arrive at the intellectual faith that God exists, and yet lack a saving faith.
and while the verse at 1 Corinthians dose state that those who show a reliance on secularism are foolish, it does not negate the wonderful achievements of science, nor of advancements in many other fields.
I never said 1 Corinthians "negates" achievement in science, etc. Nothing of the sort. Please get your facts straight. (You're really reaching/struggling to disparage my remarks. May I ask why?)
please if you are to represent Christ, do not misquote and misapply scripture to suit your argument, truth is truth, and a Christian does not need to resort to deception,
Nothing in my post or your response remotely suggests that I have resorted to deception. Are you sure you want to openly accuse me of lying?
The Bible itself gives the definition of faith, (Hebrews 11:1), not a mystery, not for a select preordained number, not devoid of reason, but firmly based on the assurances and knowledge contained in the inspired record, Gods Word the bible.
I never said faith was for a select preordained number. Neither did I say faith was void of reason.
Are you purposely looking for a confrontation? Goodness gracious...
02 Nov 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasyour post was littered with verses whether quoted directly inferred is the same thing, and my attitude is not insulting, on the contrary.
[b]no, this is another instance of a ,''christian'' (i use the term generally for nominal Christians, in your case quite apt), misquoting and erroneously misapplying biblical verses.
I didn't quote any verses, so how could have misquoted any?
Whether I misapplied any verses is fair game, but why the insulting attitude?
Philippians 4:7 has ...[text shortened]... eason.
Are you purposely looking for a confrontation? Goodness gracious...
does peace have anything to do with faith, yes they are both fruits of Gods Holy spirit, Galatians 5:22,23, you use the scripture to claim that it is beyond understanding, this is not true, it is the peace that excels all thought that is beyond understanding, not faith, nowhere is faith mentioned in the verse you quote to illustrate your point, faith is not a mystery, nor beyond understanding, not according to Hebrews chapter 11 verse 1 it is not.
you claim to know the mind of devils or daemons, how is that? have you been in communion with devils and daemons? and not only do you claim to know, but you equate them with philosophers and scientific discovery, which is just nonsense?
yes you did belittle those areas of philosophical and scientific interest, quite clearly infact, you contrasted the foolishness of the world (in your opinion science and philosophy), with in your own words, ''the message of the cross'', did you not? it is not the achievements in themselves which are foolish, but their insistence that they supersede Gods wisdom.
whether you are lying or not, i do not know, infact what are your motives, who can tell? but what is clearly evident is that, either you like to pick scriptural verses at random and try to apply them remotely to a discussion or you simply do not know what you are talking about. I am sorry if this offends you, but as far as i can determine you have no basis for complaint, on the contrary it is those Christians who sincerely love Gods word and have studied it accurately who have cause for complaint when Christ is misrepresented in such a way, whether intentionally or otherwise.
to conclude, Faith is not a mystery, it has a firm basis in scriptural evidence, the clear assurance of realities though not yet beheld, it is a fruit of Gods Holy spirit, Hebrews 11:1 and Galatians 5:22,23, and finally just to clear this up I have no intention of arguing with you,
''Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright....but a slave of the Lord does not need to fight'', - 2 timothy 2:15...23
02 Nov 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasI think the other way around.
[...]
Faith for me is when you believe something without having observations or proofs that confirms it.
[...]
People tend to use the word 'faith' in a religious way. Okay by me. But I define religion in a way where faith has no meaning.[/b]
If you call it "faith", thats the definition of religious.
"religious" does not mean "according to religion xy", in my sight of things.
"faith" is your personal concept of truth without proof.
I cited the qur'an just as an example, because most of people I know
are talking about islam as the "bad thing" without knowing it ( I don't do
either, but I know, that I don't).
The prolbem is, that everybody has his own "conept of truth".
Kant knew that 200 years ago.
We have no reality, no truth, or call it your "faith", for all.
Reality is relative!
Ok, people will not like that, but thats our (sorry for my bad english) "being here".
What is the faith of muslime suicidal assessines?
What was the faith of japaneese kamikaze in world war 2?
What is the faith of the thermonuclear physicians at CERN?
faith, reality and so on are great words...
I don't believe in great words
02 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyou claim to know the mind of devils or daemons, how is that? have you been in communion with devils and daemons?
your post was littered with verses whether quoted directly inferred is the same thing, and my attitude is not insulting, on the contrary.
does peace have anything to do with faith, yes they are both fruits of Gods Holy spirit, Galatians 5:22,23, you use the scripture to claim that it is beyond understanding, this is not true, it is the peace that truth aright....but a slave of the Lord does not need to fight'', - 2 timothy 2:15...23
Oh, please. Now you're just being ridiculous. Has James been in communion with devils, too? According to your rationale, he has. Didn't James say, "even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror"? Oh my goodness, James knows what demons believe, therefore he must be consorting and communing with demons! 🙄
Wow.
...my attitude is not insulting, on the contrary.
Oh, really? I'm pretty sure you just accused me of consorting with demons. Is that not an insult? I'm pretty sure it is.
faith is not a mystery, nor beyond understanding, not according to Hebrews chapter 11 verse 1 it is not.
Can you explain why some believe and some don't? If there is no mystery surrounding faith, then you should be able to tell me succinctly why some believe and some don't. Take two individuals who are privy to an equal amount of knowledge, with roughly the same life experiences: why does one have faith and the other have none?
It is obvious that faith has a "firm basis in scriptural evidence", as you say, but that doesn't explain away the mystery as to why one person will reject the evidence and another person will not. If the reason I have faith is entirely due to my grasp of the evidence and entirely due to my accepting of the evidence, then why does Paul claim that I cannot boast in my faith? How can faith be a gift from God, if it is entirely up to me?
...and not only do you claim to know, but you equate them with philosophers and scientific discovery, which is just nonsense?
No, it isn't nonsense. Use your brain a little. I didn't equate demons with philosophers. If you'll pay a bit more attention, you'll see that Jame's whole point is that the kind of mental assent which demon's have (i.e., they believe that there is one God, yet they have no works) is not sufficient for salvation. If a philosopher arrives at the notion that there is one God, his "faith" is a mere mental assent and not the faith which saves. You see, I didn't equate demons with philosophers, as you claim, as if philosophers were somehow demonic. What I did do is equate the relative worth of their faith.
yes you did belittle those areas of philosophical and scientific interest, quite clearly infact, you contrasted the foolishness of the world (in your opinion science and philosophy), with in your own words, ''the message of the cross'', did you not?
Go back and read the post. I didn't say that the foolishness of the world is science and philosophy in themselves, but the reliance upon science and philosophy.
In your defense, I admit the writing could have been clearer.
it is not the achievements in themselves which are foolish, but their insistence that they supersede Gods wisdom.
Exactly! Well done.
whether you are lying or not, i do not know, infact what are your motives, who can tell?
You honestly can't tell if I'm a deceiver or not, yet you make a direct and explicit accusation that I am a deceiver? That's called slander, sir. Are you really that comfortable in the role of a slanderer?
And to think, you are lecturing me about improperly representing Christ.
...but what is clearly evident is that, either you like to pick scriptural verses at random and try to apply them remotely to a discussion or you simply do not know what you are talking about.
If it is as "clearly evident" as you say, then why haven't you proved any of your points? It is not enough to prove them in your own mind. You are presenting a false dichotomy. There is at least a third option: you were quick to judge and slow to understand my post.
I am sorry if this offends you, but as far as i can determine you have no basis for complaint, on the contrary...
It isn't your critique of my post which offends me, it's the bulk of your unfounded accusations. Such as, derisively calling me a "nominal" Christian, a deceiver, and insinuating that I commune with demons. This is plenty of a basis for complaint. I am quite willing to accede to an argument or a superior exegesis, but I will not stand for slander.
It is curious that you lack the gentle spirit of one of Christ's sheep, yet you carry yourself with the aire of a Super Christian. Why is that? Why the need to slander your brother in Christ?
...and finally just to clear this up I have no intention of arguing with you,
If it was your intention of arguing with me, then you might have entered the discussion with a bit more substance. It seems your only intention was to tear me down.
And now you're just going to walk away? Should I be surprised? I really don't know you very well, so I don't know if I should be surprised or not.
03 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999I still don't get it. When you have faith, do you have any evidence that indicates that what you believe is factual?
My interpretation/wording is as follows:
V1 Faith is believing in something even though we cannot see it or have proof of its existance or that it is in fact true.
V2 Through faith many found favour with God.
V3 Through faith we understand & believe that God created the world/time/the universe and what we see is just the tip of the iceberg. Much goe ...[text shortened]... y God in some way. Thats my interpretation, and I dont claim to fully understand all the verses.
If your faith is not based on evidence, what is the reason for it? Where does it come from? Do you simply pick a concept at random and decide to have faith in it?
There must be more to the process if you are truly claiming to know factual things through faith.
When believers in other gods at the time of Noah drowned was it due to lack of faith, or is faith specific to a religion?
03 Nov 08
Originally posted by afxThat's why I define religion in a general way, not by examples.
I think the other way around.
If you call it "faith", thats the definition of religious.
"religious" does not mean "according to religion xy", in my sight of things.
"faith" is your personal concept of truth without proof.
I cited the qur'an just as an example, because most of people I know
are talking about islam as the "bad thing" without knowing it ( I d ...[text shortened]... aith, reality and so on are great words...
I don't believe in great words
Some se religion as christian faith, because for them there are no other religions. A say that every religion has faith.
If faith is a good thing, is suicide a good thing if it comes out of faith? I say no. Faith is not always a good thing.
So when somebody says I belive in the BigBang theory out of my faith, then he (a) has misunderstood science, (b) BigBang theory) or (c) the very definition of the word 'faith'. If bigBang is faith only, then what is not faith?
I say faith is a 'religious' word, but we often use the word 'faith' in a sloppy way.
Do I have faith that my next paycheck will come as agreed?
Do I have faith that my car will start tomorrow morning despite subzero temp?
Do I have faith that I'll take my next exam?
Do I have faith that the next election will go as I want?
Do I have faith that we all can agree of the the word 'faith' means?
03 Nov 08
Originally posted by FabianFnas"Faith for me is when you believe something without having observations or proofs that confirms it. "
That's what I've been asking for. And recieved. And this faith seems to be a religious idea.
Faith for me is when you believe something without having observations or proofs that confirms it.
Do I have faith in atoms? No, because I believe in the proofs for their existance.
Do I have faith in that one day we can travel to other stars? Yes, because ...[text shortened]... in a religious way. Okay by me. But I define religion in a way where faith has no meaning.
I don't see it this way, since you can have observations and experience
and still have to rely on faith that what you believe to be true is, and
it isn't limited to relgion either in my estimation.
I'm not interested in your views on religion at the moment, that is
another topic.
Kelly