Faith equals lawlessness?

Originally posted by @suzianne
Can you clarify what you mean?

There is no "license to sin".

Then why warn against it?

Rajk999 has already pointed out albeit scripturally incorrectly that “forgivingness is guaranteed”; this is becuase if we are in Christ we are beyond condemnation, we are saved, once and for all time.

This does not mean that we are beyond discipline and even punishment if we use our eternal salvation as a “licence to sin”.

I just found it interesting that acknowledging that there is potentially the use of a “licence to sin” is acknowledging eternal salvation. I am not advocating using salvation as a licence to sin, I’m pointing out that if we did indeed earn salvation then there would be no need to warn about something that didn’t exist.

Do you see?

Originally posted by @divegeester
But the “licence” exists...this is my point.

For some people yes.
Not all who profess faith have this licence.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Then why warn against it?

Rajk999 has already pointed out albeit scripturally incorrectly that “forgivingness is guaranteed”; this is becuase if we are in Christ we are beyond condemnation, we are saved, once and for all time.

This does not mean that we are beyond discipline and even punishment if we use our eternal salvation as a “licence to sin ...[text shortened]... salvation then there would be no need to warn about something that didn’t exist.

Do you see?

I never doubted that eternal salvation exists .. it is a biblical concept and some have it.

Im denying that all who profess faith have it. That is unbiblical.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Then why warn against it?

Rajk999 has already pointed out albeit scripturally incorrectly that “forgivingness is guaranteed”; this is becuase if we are in Christ we are beyond condemnation, we are saved, once and for all time.

This does not mean that we are beyond discipline and even punishment if we use our eternal salvation as a “licence to sin ...[text shortened]... salvation then there would be no need to warn about something that didn’t exist.

Do you see?

He gives Christians the shortest shrift possible. He maintains that WE act as though we condone sinning (the fore-mentioned "license to sin" ), but it is only a "thing" in his own head. NO Christians here condone sinning. It is the one thing that Christians world-wide struggle against every single day. This is not even debatable. The problem is that to say there is no "license to sin" is to abandon this bogus idea that Christians somehow condone sinning, which is a favorite argument of his, even as ridiculous as it is.

Warning of this "thing" in his own head doesn't mean that "thing" exists. I am saying there is NO "license to sin" because there is no "free lunch" in ANY Christian doctrine. He claims there is in order to debase it, because he disagrees with it. You should be familiar with this forum strategy.

Originally posted by @suzianne
He gives Christians the shortest shrift possible. He maintains that WE act as though we condone sinning (the fore-mentioned "license to sin" ), but it is only a "thing" in his own head. NO Christians here condone sinning. It is the one thing that Christians world-wide struggle against every single day. This is not even debatable. The problem is that t ...[text shortened]... ebase it, because he disagrees with it. You should be familiar with this forum strategy.

I have grown to like Rajk999’s pitch about “works”, and that we are expected to do “works” and that there is (tactical) consequences of sin, especially unconfessed sin.

But I disagree with him on the doctrinal absolutes that seem to accompany his beliefs, the same way I disagree with the absolutes that sonship teaches...albeit on on different subjects but actually connected. Let me explain...

Fear of hell is similar to the fear of losing, or failing to qualify for, salvation. Unbelievers are not, and never will be, attracted to he notion of a God saving them from an eternity of torture...the only thing that is attractive is Jesus Christ himself. Not even the OT Jehovah is attractive, right!

Now with works links salvation the “fear” is still there, the fear of failing to make the cut. Fear is not attractive to anyone and is a poor motivator as anyone knows. The “attraction” of Jesus Christ And his leadership can be compared to a good business leader in everyday life....people follow not out of fear, it out of trust and sincere desire to do the right thing.

My premise....when we see fear associated with the gospel in any way, then we must know immediately that there is something wrong with that doctrine.



Rajk999, sorry for talking about you as though you are not here, it’s just easier to reply once to Suzianne.

Originally posted by @divegeester
I have grown to like Rajk999’s pitch about “works”, and that we are expected to do “works” and that there is (tactical) consequences of sin, especially unconfessed sin.

But I disagree with him on the doctrinal absolutes that seem to accompany his beliefs, the same way I disagree with the absolutes that sonship teaches...albeit on on different subjec ...[text shortened]... ry for talking about you as though you are not here, it’s just easier to reply once to Suzianne.

Cool.. you are saying the right things. I dont think our doctrine is as far apart as you think. Eternal security is for sheep of Christ... who enjoy that assurance without fear. If they go astray Jesus brings them back.

The claim that a man confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart is all ... then eternal life is an incomplete doctrine and a perversion of the doctrine of the apostles.... who preached loads more about eternal life.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Cool.. you are saying the right things. I dont think our doctrine is as far apart as you think. Eternal security is for sheep of Christ... who enjoy that assurance without fear. If they go astray Jesus brings them back.

The claim that a man confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart is all ... then eternal life is an incomplete doctrine and a perversion of the doctrine of the apostles.... who preached loads more about eternal life.

I don’t understand how you reconcile these two sentences. Romans 10:09 is unequivocal, however, believing unto salvation is not wishful thinking. The faith that saves is not mouth worship.

Originally posted by @rajk999
I never doubted that eternal salvation exists .. it is a biblical concept and some have it.

Im denying that all who profess faith have it. That is unbiblical.

Your doctrine changes on nearly a daily basis.

More time reading the Bible and praying for wisdom and less time spouting off is the right posting prescription for you, amigo.

Originally posted by @divegeester
I don’t understand how you reconcile these two sentences. Romans 10:09 is unequivocal, however, believing unto salvation is not wishful thinking. The faith that saves is not mouth worship.

Believing with the heart (Rom 10:9) = following the commandments.

So the Christian confesses faith in Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit begins a life changing process culminating in perfection like Christ.

Not all succeed. And it is the doctrine that promotes the idea that evil people will still enter the kingdom of God I find to be contrary to the bible.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Believing with the heart (Rom 10:9) = following the commandments.

So the Christian confesses faith in Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit begins a life changing process culminating in perfection like Christ.

Not all succeed. And it is the doctrine that promotes the idea that evil people will still enter the kingdom of God I find to be contrary to the bible.

Culminating in “Perfection like Christ”
And “Not all succeed”

You really think a Christian should be perfect like Christ and that achieving that is “succeeding”?

Originally posted by @divegeester
Culminating in “Perfection like Christ”
And “Not all succeed”

You really think a Christian should be perfect like Christ and that achieving that is “succeeding”?

A Christian must aim for that perfection to be like Christ. Success is pleasing God. I cannot say exactly when along that journey God is pleased.

Originally posted by @rajk999
A Christian must aim for that perfection to be like Christ. Success is pleasing God. I cannot say exactly when along that journey God is pleased.

Well at least you should know that without faith it is impossible to please God. That's where your atheists can be saved by works doctrine goes up in smoke.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Well at least you should know that without faith it is impossible to please God. That's where your atheists can be saved by works doctrine goes up in smoke.

The greatest is love and charity... not faith. God is more pleased with an atheist who shows love than a Christian who does not. Read 1 Corinthians 12 and 13. Read Romans 2 for a better understanding of the fate of Gentiles who live according to their conscience.

Read all the writings of the apostles who warn Christians who live according to the flesh. Contrary to your doctrine they face a fate worse than if they did not know Christ at all.

Rajk999 -

The greatest is love and charity... not faith.

The verse says this:

" Now there abide faith, hope, love, these three, and the greatest of these is love. " (1 Cor. 13:13)

You are arbitrarily changing the Scripture towards what you want to say.

It did not say the greatest is love and charity. It said "these three" and "the greatest of these is love."

Furthermore chapter 13 is not about the requirements of salvation but the function and service of believers in the church life.

Originally posted by @sonship
Rajk999 -

The greatest is love and charity... not faith.

The verse says this:

[b]" Now there abide faith, hope, love, these three, and the greatest of these is love. " (1 Cor. 13:13)

You are arbitrarily changing the Scripture towards what you want to say.

It did not say the greatest is love and charity. I ...[text shortened]... bout the requirements of salvation but the function and service of believers in the church life.[/b]

Faith is nothing.

Love charity good works is what is required for eternal life in the kingdom of God.

Blessed are those who follow Christ and do his commandments...