Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]Your claim is dismissed then.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! 😏[/b]

Smug git.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Smug git.

take it easy man. It's not like he doesn't deserve it , but you dont want to be seen to be stooping to his level.
btw i thumbed you up and him down for what it's worth 😉


on the other hand your comment was spot on, so it can be seen 2 diifferent ways 🙂

Originally posted by Penguin
[b]Where chance really cannot be given credit

Who's giving credit to chance? It plays a small (important, but still small) part in the process.

your(sic) left with something that needs or requires a guiding force.

Yes, natural selection.

And around we go again...

--- Penguin (dropping in briefly)[/b]

A lot of credit for natural selection is given when in my opinion it really
resembles more beliefs surrounding that one than facts. The credit it seems
flows to it by giving it credit for the paths evolution supposedly took in getting
all life to where we see it today. Chance supposedly gave life all its
evolutionary path choices promoting healthier, stronger life forms.

Getting a proper choice is just as important as making the right one, in
addition to that staying on the right path for as long as it takes is just as hard
as getting on the right path, and when any wrong turn or path can lead to
death so I fail to see why so many believe in it. The only reason I can come up
with is that people hate the only other option most people see which is there is
a reason for life has to do with something or someone other than nothing.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
I believe that we have agreed in the past, that some brute facts are necessary. (am I mistaking you for someone else in this regard?)
If some brute facts exist, then are they 'chance'?
Would you describe physical laws as 'chance'?

I think we all accept the existence of 'guiding forces'. After all, nobody disputes that gravity exists even though we ma ...[text shortened]... creationists always try to set up a false dichotomy fallacy of 'chance vs intelligence'?

I believe in brute facts, I do not see evolution, or those things that have to be
true to make evolution as true for getting all the life we see today coming up
from a single simple lifeform.
Kelly

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well that wasn't actually the point.

We get that you creationists don't believe evolution is possible and use pseudo-scientific
arguments about probability to try to support your position.
And every so often one of us will refute those arguments....

but that isn't what happened here.

What was suggested was that WE [skeptics/scientists/'evolut ...[text shortened]... e mock the idea because someone so stupid as to make that argument deserves nothing else.

I don't believe anyone who believes in evolution actually does so against their
own will knowing its wrong. I think they cling to it no matter what questions
are put to them and will with every question cling to anything that may
support their position. They also have to do it without claiming to have beliefs
or faith too in most cases.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe in brute facts, I do not see evolution, or those things that have to be
true to make evolution as true for getting all the life we see today coming up
from a single simple lifeform.
Kelly

You are avoiding the questions as always. Why cant you ever have an honest discussion? Do you accept that brute facts are not correctly described as 'chance'?
Would you describe gravity as 'chance'? Would you describe gravity as a 'guiding force'?

Originally posted by KellyJay
.... and when any wrong turn or path can lead to death so I fail to see why so many believe in it.

There is an enormous variety of life forms on earth today. The fossil record shows an equally enormous variety in the past. Why do you assume that every turn except the ones actually taken will lead to death? Its like claiming that a dog breeder can only possibly end up with a grey hound and any other breed he tries to get will die for sure. Yet we see many many breeds of dogs and there are presumably many many more possible breeds that we have not got, but could have.

The only reason I can come up with is that people hate the only other option most people see which is there is a reason for life has to do with something or someone other than nothing.
Have you considered that maybe it is simply that you don't understand evolution and many of those who accept it do understand it? Do you really think you are that much smarter than everyone else in the world, that anyone who disagrees must be fooling themselves?
The fact is that it has been shown to you many many times that you do not understand many of the basic concepts of evolution, including many of the probability calculations that you use to base your assertions on, yet you continue to think that your conclusions are valid and that everyone else must therefore be wrong.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are avoiding the questions as always. Why cant you ever have an honest discussion? Do you accept that brute facts are not correctly described as 'chance'?
Would you describe gravity as 'chance'? Would you describe gravity as a 'guiding force'?

I believe in brute facts yes, I do NOT believe that everything people CLAIM to be
true that gives credit to evolution is true or factual brute or otherwise.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
There is an enormous variety of life forms on earth today. The fossil record shows an equally enormous variety in the past. Why do you assume that every turn except the ones actually taken will lead to death? Its like claiming that a dog breeder can only possibly end up with a grey hound and any other breed he tries to get will die for sure. Yet we see ma ntinue to think that your conclusions are valid and that everyone else must therefore be wrong.

Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply
get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it
right, things will die. So I do not believe evolution is a good way to get veins, or
valves and so on. There are just too many things that have to have proper timing
to go right, and to wing it until you get it right means you are wrong till you go get
it right. I don't believe that is what could happen and have life develop properly
period.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
There is an enormous variety of life forms on earth today. The fossil record shows an equally enormous variety in the past. Why do you assume that every turn except the ones actually taken will lead to death? Its like claiming that a dog breeder can only possibly end up with a grey hound and any other breed he tries to get will die for sure. Yet we see ma ntinue to think that your conclusions are valid and that everyone else must therefore be wrong.

Breeding dogs to get more dogs does not violate God's law set down in Genesis. However, if you are trying to get some think other than a dog, you are bound to fail.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by KellyJay
Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply
get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it
right, things will die. So I do not believe evolution is a good way to get veins, or
valves and so on. There are just too many things that have to have proper timing
to go right, and t ...[text shortened]... right. I don't believe that is what could happen and have life develop properly
period.
Kelly

Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it right, things will die.

Have you not noticed that in the wild, things die all the time?!? This is why most animals have litters of multiple offspring: most of the young do not survive to adulthood.

No-one ever said evolution was a 'good' or an 'efficient' way. However, it appears to be the way it actually happens in the wild. As you say, it is a way that involves lots of death, which is exactly what we see.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
[b]Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply get it right or you do not. If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it right, things will die.

Have you not noticed that in the wild, things die all the time?!? This is why most animals have litters of multiple offspring: most of the young do not sur ...[text shortened]... say, it is a way that involves lots of death, which is exactly what we see.

--- Penguin.[/b]

Yes, wild things die off all the time. That also should tell you that life is very
difficult to maintain and evolutionist believe that it’s so strong that it can go through
time from a very simple beginning and change ever so slowly becoming more and
more functionally complex all the while. All of this going on in hostile environments
those do not lend themselves to being overly kind or for that matter consistent.

I don't believe life could start off simply (single cell), but under go all the changes
required to get the diversity we see today through random change and natural
selection so that things like the heart, brain, just develops and are nicely
complimented with other complex body parts. That all of that would just happened
without a real reason; because, it could do nothing else under the conditions all the
non-living material found itself in oh so long ago when there was no life anywhere.

I do not believe in any brute fact that would without design start and change a
single cell living creature into what we see today. I don't believe it is just like if
you let go of a rock it would have to fall, that life would have to start and change
into what we see today. For me anyone who buys into that has a great deal of
faith and a strong belief system, its a pretty story nothing more.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe in brute facts yes, I do NOT believe that everything people CLAIM to be
true that gives credit to evolution is true or factual brute or otherwise.
Kelly

Why do you always find it so difficult to answer a simple question? I tend to assume dishonesty on your part, but there may be another reason. If there is, can you explain?
I'll try again:
Are brute facts 'chance'?
Is gravity and its effects 'chance'?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Having the proper thickness or length is a big deal, like framing a door you simply
get it right or you do not.

That is blatantly untrue. Everyone knows that there are literally billions of different types of doors in existence with different frame thickness's. In fact, I could easily build a door with any frame thickness between say 1mm and 1m. That's a continuous range including an infinite number of possible values, none of which are 'not right'.

If you’re just winging it, making changes until you get it
right, things will die.
And as Penguin points out, they do.

So I do not believe evolution is a good way to get veins, or valves and so on.
Whether it is a good way or not is not relevant. The question is whether it is a way at all and whether it is the way that these things came about.

There are just too many things that have to have proper timing
to go right, and to wing it until you get it right means you are wrong till you go get
it right. I don't believe that is what could happen and have life develop properly
period.
But that is mere scepticism on your part. It is not based on facts. Its based on your rough estimation of the possible variables without any actual knowledge of what those variables are. You are just guessing.
You say just too many things' yet you cannot actually give even rough estimates of how many 'right' combinations exist and how many 'wrong' combinations exist or how many combinations nature tries before getting it 'right'. Yet you dismiss the possibility based on a probability argument.
That's like saying you don't believe anyone could possibly pick a yellow marble out of a bag because there are too many black marbles even though you have no idea how many marbles of each colour are in the bag.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, wild things die off all the time. That also should tell you that life is very
difficult to maintain and evolutionist believe that it’s so strong that it can go through
time from a very simple beginning and change ever so slowly becoming more and
more functionally complex all the while. All of this going on in hostile environments
those do not lend has a great deal of
faith and a strong belief system, its a pretty story nothing more.
Kelly

To me, it would take more faith to believe that everything created itself and then life accidently began by some unkown process that no one has ever seen happen, than to believe that there is some intelligent designer God with the awesome power to create life. With evolution, one has to imagine how it might have happened. With creation, the creator tells how he did it. And over several thousand years this presentation of the creation has yet to be proven wrong. I'll put my money on creation.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God!