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Originally posted by sonship"Do you believe that a person could be afraid to have assurance of something ?"So we as a species need belief in God. I agree.
If you believe that is true, where do you think this need came from ?
Why should be have such a need if we do ?
I do not wish it away. I don't know where you got the idea that I would have this belief be radically different than it is.
This is getting a little fogg ...[text shortened]... not believe."
Do you believe that a person could be afraid to have assurance of something ?
Are you asking if a person could be afraid that something he does not believe is true, is true? I suppose that moment of fear would make him want to find out. On a mundane example level I have been afraid that I lost my keys. I suppose a better term is I had a moment of anxiety about it that dominated my thoughts and actions until I found them. I don't have that anxiety about God. I have encountered some people who have tries to invoke Pascal's Wager, without any lasting change in my beliefs or lack thereof.
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14 Sep 16
Originally posted by JS357
"Do you believe that a person could be afraid to have assurance of something ?"
Are you asking if a person could be afraid that something he does not believe is true, is true? I suppose that moment of fear would make him want to find out. On a mundane example level I have been afraid that I lost my keys. I suppose a better term is I had a moment of anxiety ...[text shortened]... o have tries to invoke Pascal's Wager, without any lasting change in my beliefs or lack thereof.
Are you asking if a person could be afraid that something he does not believe is true, is true?
I think my phrasing was clear.
Do you believe that a person could be afraid to have assurance of something ?
I see no need to re-phrase.
I suppose that moment of fear would make him want to find out. On a mundane example level I have been afraid that I lost my keys. I suppose a better term is I had a moment of anxiety about it that dominated my thoughts and actions until I found them. I don't have that anxiety about God. I have encountered some people who have tries to invoke Pascal's Wager, without any lasting change in my beliefs or lack thereof.
Thanks.
No further questions for now.
15 Sep 16
Originally posted by DeepThoughtWhere exactly did I state that? I have always stated that if there is a universal moral law, God would be the law maker.
It just occurred to me that FMJ believes, or at least stated that, morality and God are one thing. If one also takes a naturalist view, that God started it all off and then left the Universe alone to bake at gas mark 2 zillion and leave to cool, then morality brought about evolution.
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Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
No purpose + Fear = Self constructed purpose.
No purpose + Fear = Self constructed purpose.
But why should there be fear in humans of "No purpose" in the first place ?
We don't see the cow fearful of no purpose as she peacefully munches on the grass.
We don't see the crows perched on the power line anxious of having "No purpose".
The cat lazily lying on the chair doesn't seemed upset at having "No purpose".
Why suddenly an animal - human beings - with this "fear" of having no purpose such that one has to be manufactured ?
Any insight into that ?
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15 Sep 16
Originally posted by sonshipOnly man has fear of his own mortality. This is an intelligence thing, not a God thing.No purpose + Fear = Self constructed purpose.
But why should there be fear in [b]humans of "No purpose" in the first place ?
We don't see the cow fearful of no purpose as she peacefully munches on the grass.
We don't see the crows perched on the power line anxious of having "No purpose".
The cat lazily lying on the chair doe ...[text shortened]... s "fear" of having no purpose such that one has to be manufactured ?
Any insight into that ?[/b]
Fear of mortality + intelligence + ego = self constructed purpose.
It is difficult for an intelligent person (with ego) to accept their existence is without purpose. A cow or a cat does not have this problem.
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15 Sep 16
Originally posted by sonshipNo purpose + fear does not mean, necessarily, no purpose + fear of there being no purpose.No purpose + Fear = Self constructed purpose.
But why should there be fear in [b]humans of "No purpose" in the first place ?
We don't see the cow fearful of no purpose as she peacefully munches on the grass.
We don't see the crows perched on the power line anxious of having "No purpose".
The cat lazily lying on the chair doe ...[text shortened]... s "fear" of having no purpose such that one has to be manufactured ?
Any insight into that ?[/b]
Also, many animals besides our species show fear and other emotions. Fear can be a very useful emotion.
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Originally posted by JS357True, but I think humans are probably unique in the prolonged fear of their own mortality. (With the possible exception of elephants).
Also, many animals besides our species show fear and other emotions. Fear can be a very useful emotion.
If cats, for example, were more intelligent and worried about their eventual demise, we would no doubt have a plethora of cat religions.
15 Sep 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkApologies, it was sonship. Page 33 of this thread, second post from bottom, first non-quoted paragraph. He tried to get around the Eurythropo dilemma by claiming "God is righteousness".
Where exactly did I state that? I have always stated that if there is a universal moral law, God would be the law maker.
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Originally posted by JS357
No purpose + fear does not mean, necessarily, no purpose + fear of there being no purpose.
Also, many animals besides our species show fear and other emotions. Fear can be a very useful emotion.
I was only concerned with the fear of having no purpose as the exchanged posts, I thought, clearly said was the concern under consideration.
No purpose + Fear = Self constructed purpose. (Ghost of Duke)
Of course animals have fears of various other things.
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16 Sep 16
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Originally posted by sonshipYour and Ghost's reply are similar.No purpose + fear does not mean, necessarily, no purpose + fear of there being no purpose.
Also, many animals besides our species show fear and other emotions. Fear can be a very useful emotion.
I was only concerned with the fear of having no purpose as the exchanged posts, I thought, [b] clearly said was the concern under co ...[text shortened]... purpose. (Ghost of Duke) [/quote]
Of course animals have fears of various other things.[/b]
I fail to see the significance to this thread, of only humans having a fear other species do not. If there were two species having the fear, perhaps on one planet or two different planets, what difference would that make to morality having evolved or not?
16 Sep 16
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI'm assuming most not all, but most who hold to evolution do so with God as not part of
Are you asking if mind can exist without God?
the process. Having God involved answers all directional questions as a musician playing
music would explain the notes used. I'm also quite sure we could have a *mind* without
it pondering moral choices too. So I'm more concern about acting with purpose and
reason. Morals would have to be way down the evolutionary time line if it were a reality
in my estimation. For me as you and others already know I question this coming about
through random mutation with nothing more than natural selection as a driving force.
How would a thought arise? How would the first choices occur? With life there are things
we do automatically like our hearts beat, and things we have to put in effort like standing
up. Even our involuntary actions need a reason, without them what would happen any
thing at all? How is it that life knew to eat, knew what was good to eat and not? How did
it avoid danger, and on and on. Then through time start making choices, holding thoughts?
16 Sep 16
Originally posted by JS357If you think doing the math is reasoning not thinking, I will not argue since I think we agree
It just may turn out that some some machines do what arguably (fer sher!!) call reasoning. But I would not say they are thinking.
http://histscifi.com/essays/dick/thinking.html
on the idea just not how we define it.
16 Sep 16
Originally posted by JS357"So I would say in terms of getting off the starting blocks, in the past few decades we are off the starting blocks in explaining how chemistry affects biology and psychology. But the analogy of science to a foot race is faulty because there is no finish line."
At the chemical level called chemistry (basically, chemical bonds and their formation etc.) we can explain a lot about neurochemistry, hormones, etc that affect emotion which can explain motivations and decision making in some ways. For example some people have a neurological hormone deficiency which can affect their mood to the point of affecting their belie ...[text shortened]... psychology. But the analogy of science to a foot race is faulty because there is no finish line.
One of my daughters is type 1, I know her moods can be changed by her numbers. That
does not really get us off the starting block though in my opinion, talking about a fully
functional person and seeing changes in behavior due to a site change or a shot, isn't
the same thing as having a life form think or reason for the first time and make a moral
choice.