Spirituality
14 Aug 13
14 Aug 13
I'm interested in people's thoughts on the possibilities or not of what happens after death. Everything or nothing?
If you are an atheist does that mean you cannot accept that there is some sort of existence, raw energy, cognitive presence or otherwise, after death?
Theists here seem resolute, the 'hard' atheists also, but is there a middle ground between everything and nothing?
Thoughts...
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Originally posted by VelnsI don't know what "everything or nothing" means, but there is no logical necessity or definitional constraint on whether an atheist believes in life continuing in some way after this human life each of us now enjoys. One can imagine life repeating (with or without memory/knowledge of it repeating), or commencing as some other person, or animal, or who know, a plant or rock. Although what it would be like to be a bat, plant, or rock seems questionable and what if the rock breaks in two? And fundamentally, what would it mean to say it is "me" in that next life? Even if I have memories of this life, is that enough to say it will be "me" in that next period? And is that period likewise finite in time? Of course most theists have the answers provided to them.
I'm interested in people's thoughts on the possibilities or not of what happens after death. Everything or nothing?
If you are an atheist does that mean you cannot accept that there is some sort of existence, raw energy, cognitive presence or otherwise, after death?
Theists here seem resolute, the 'hard' atheists also, but is there a middle ground between everything and nothing?
Thoughts...
14 Aug 13
Originally posted by VelnsNot all theists think there is life after death.
If you are an atheist does that mean you cannot accept that there is some sort of existence, raw energy, cognitive presence or otherwise, after death?
Theists here seem resolute, the 'hard' atheists also, but is there a middle ground between everything and nothing?
I am an atheist, but I believe there is no life after death on scientific grounds, not because I am an atheist. My understanding of the brain and how consciousness works simply rules out any such thing.
14 Aug 13
Originally posted by VelnsSince all evidence points to "nothing" then that is what I choose to believe,
I'm interested in people's thoughts on the possibilities or not of what happens after death. Everything or nothing?
If you are an atheist does that mean you cannot accept that there is some sort of existence, raw energy, cognitive presence or otherwise, after death?
Theists here seem resolute, the 'hard' atheists also, but is there a middle ground between everything and nothing?
Thoughts...
not that I think about it at all! Whatever will be will be.
I do get a little annoyed by various groups hijacking scientific terminology
to somehow give credence to their views. What on earth do you mean by "raw energy"?
And "cognitive presence"???
15 Aug 13
Originally posted by wolfgang59Don't get annoyed, there is no need to. Don't worry about the terminology, imagination is sometimes more important. I am wondering if people here consider the possibility of something after death, maybe not the everything of the theist's religious views or maybe not the nothing of some atheists views. But...something.
Since all evidence points to "nothing" then that is what I choose to believe,
not that I think about it at all! Whatever will be will be.
I do get a little annoyed by various groups hijacking scientific terminology
to somehow give credence to their views. What on earth do you mean by "raw energy"?
And "cognitive presence"???
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Originally posted by wolfgang59The most important thing you need to know about your dying is that after death there is judgment -
Since all evidence points to "nothing" then that is what I choose to believe,
not that I think about it at all! Whatever will be will be.
I do get a little annoyed by various groups hijacking scientific terminology
to somehow give credence to their views. What on earth do you mean by "raw energy"?
And "cognitive presence"???
"And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this [comes] judgment ..." (Hebrews 9:27)
Do not let curiosity distract you from the most important thing. After death you are to be judged by God.
Now here is the good news. While you are alive you should present yourself to God in prayer and tell Him that you have already been judged in Jesus Christ. You accept His plan. You agree with the offer of eternal salvation.
So I encourage you to confess to God that you believe that you have been judged already on the cross of Jesus Christ at Calvary and you receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
This you should do as soon as possible and not delay. This is crucial and other matters can be dealt with latter. Do not let excessive curiosity distract you from the need to be saved from God's judgment.
If you argue with me I am going to tell you the same thing again.
You should confess your need for the Savior and simply thank Him, thank Him, that you have already been judged by God on the cross of Jesus.
Be sure to thank Him. You simply receive the Lord Jesus by the little bit of faith that I know you have. God will honor that. The Holy Spirit will honor that.
15 Aug 13
Originally posted by VelnsI have considered the possibility, but it just doesn't match with reality. I do wish life after death were possible, but then I also wish fairies existed.
I am wondering if people here consider the possibility of something after death, maybe not the everything of the theist's religious views or maybe not the nothing of some atheists views. But...something.
If you understand how the brain works, there is simply no way that consciousness could exist without the brain.
The best attempt at side stepping this I have heard from theists is the claim that God will remake our consciousness via either a new brain or some other mechanism. I have slight reservations about continuity in such a case similar to reservations people have about teleportation machines in star wars that destroy you completely then rebuild you at the other end. Is it really you that gets teleported? And what happens if you are cloned instead?
The biggest problem facing any life after death scenario, is the question of what from your current life could be retained. For example, if you suffer from total memory loss in old age, would that life after death have no memories, or would it regain all your memories from some specific point in your life, or would it regain all your memories from your whole life, or would it regain a selection of memories?
Similarly if you suffer brain damage and can no longer recognise faces for example. Would you suffer the same disability after death?
My point is that even without knowing much about brain science you should be able to see major problems with life after death concepts. If you then study some brain science, you will see that those problems are simply insurmountable.
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15 Aug 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadDid it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?
I have considered the possibility, but it just doesn't match with reality. I do wish life after death were possible, but then I also wish fairies existed.
If you understand how the brain works, there is simply no way that consciousness could exist without the brain.
The best attempt at side stepping this I have heard from theists is the claim that God w ...[text shortened]... you then study some brain science, you will see that those problems are simply insurmountable.
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes of course, and I am open to discussing the topic. However whenever I have brought it up on this forum, the theists do not want to discuss it. Notice how quiet this thread is? Notice how sonship avoids any discussion of it, and resorts to threats of 'believe or else'. Notice how you do not consider anything I have said and discuss it, but instead just suggest I might be wrong?
Did it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?
Clearly it has occurred to most theists that they could be wrong, and they would rather not know.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterIf to say, "It's possible I am wrong" in the case at hand, implies "An afterlife is possible," then "It's possible I am wrong" is an overreach.
Did it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?
One cannot claim an afterlife is possible without evidence that it is possible. Instead, TW presents evidence that it is not possible; that evidence being the apparent dependence of memory [edit: mental functioning in general] on the brain.
Disregarding that piece of evidence is of course possible, but disregarding it does not count as evidence for the possibility of an afterlife. That evidence needs to be presented if we are to be as evidence-based for the possibility of an afterlife, as TW is for its impossibility.
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15 Aug 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf God could create billions of stars and name them each, if he has created every part of the human body including the brain, then why should he not be able to recreate an exact duplicate with duplicate thoughts, etc.?
I have considered the possibility, but it just doesn't match with reality. I do wish life after death were possible, but then I also wish fairies existed.
If you understand how the brain works, there is simply no way that consciousness could exist without the brain.
The best attempt at side stepping this I have heard from theists is the claim that God w ...[text shortened]... you then study some brain science, you will see that those problems are simply insurmountable.
He said in the old testament he can restore Israel out of dead men's bones.
As far as creation and restoration, nothing is impossible with him.
People that suffered from any kind of ailment will be healed.
Moses, Abraham who God called friends, will be restored as they were. What age? I do not know, there are many unknowns here in the area you seek.
But I am curious as to why you would even ask these kinds of questions...
Is it to gloat over us not having all the answers? What is your point?
15 Aug 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterIf ...
If God could create billions of stars and name them each, if he has created every part of the human body including the brain, then why should he not be able to recreate an exact duplicate with duplicate thoughts, etc.?
..................
What is your point?
15 Aug 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterI did mention that possibility, and did say that it was the most reasonable explanation I had heard to date. I am not questioning Gods ability. I would however like more clarification on a number of details:
If God could create billions of stars and name them each, if he has created every part of the human body including the brain, then why should he not be able to recreate an exact duplicate with duplicate thoughts, etc.?
1. What exactly would he be recreating? A new brain exactly as mine was at some point in time, or some other mechanism that simulates a brain?
2. What point in time would be recreated?
People that suffered from any kind of ailment will be healed.
What constitutes ailment, and what constitutes healing?
If someone is born with Downs Syndrome, will they be 'healed'?
If someone has a low IQ, will they be 'healed'?
If someone has lost their memory, will they be 'healed' and would this constitute restoring their memories, and if so, which ones?
I do not know, there are many unknowns here in the area you seek.
But its world speculating don't you think? Thinking about what the possibilities are, and what the implications would be?
But I am curious as to why you would even ask these kinds of questions...
Is it to gloat over us not having all the answers? What is your point?
I find it a fascinating topic. I have always wondered what it would be like to be cloned exactly. Is the clone me? If we are ever able to upload our brains to a computer, would I want to do so? Would that be me?
I have tried to discuss this many times on this forum but for some reason theists never want to take part. In fact, your contribution is probably the best I have had to date, so thank you.
so what do you think of the issues I raise above? I am not expecting you to know exactly what God will do or how he will do it, I just want to know what you think about the possibilities and implications.
Another interesting thought experiment:
If you die. Then I resurrect your five year old self. Would that be you?
If I could promise to resurrect your five year old self after your death, would you care?