Originally posted by vistesd
[b]I don't know if we can meaningfully discuss any given part of a conceptual model without first speaking of each conceptual model as a whole, which I suspect may be happening here.

I think the questions you raised in your OP are meaningful. That’s why I realized I had to expand my own definition of the ego-construct.

The reason I brought the who ...[text shortened]... king the ego-construct as real identity is the illusion that maintains all the other illusions.[/b]

But what if the ego is so subtle and clever that it invests itself in the idea of an "egoless" state?

One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is found when he isn't.

Ultimately the devil's idea is to get someone to think they have transcended sin so that they will think they have no need of a relationship with Christ. The concept is that the enemy will try any trick to keep us away from Jesus. My feeling is that ToO has fallen into just such a trap.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Hmmm...I was looking for something else entirely.

I'm not sure, but it seems that instead of solely using the conceptual model presented in my 'thought experiment', you projected some of the concepts in your conceptual model onto the one presented and answered from there.

No problem with 'hijacking' my thread. It was pretty much a non-starter.

I'm not sure, but it seems that instead of solely using the conceptual model presented in my 'thought experiment', you projected some of the concepts in your conceptual model onto the one presented and answered from there.

Yeah, I suppose I did. But—your thought experiment did trigger that thinking ! 😉

If one takes the terms of your thought experiment as given, then, as I see it:

(1) The competition you describe surely sets up conflict that will be damaging both to the truth, and to the individual’s real well-being (as opposed to the ego’s perceived well-being).

—Key here is the relationship of truth and reality.

(2) In such a competition, if the ego survives intact, the individual will suffer spiritually, intellectually and ultimately physically.


(3) Such a competition is surely based on the ego’s illusions about itself.

(4) As the ego defends the security of its illusions, the person may likely cause suffering and harm to others as well.

I still have a problem with defining the ego in terms of seeking well-being: the ego seeks its own perceived well-being and self-gratification and security. I do not think that one can say that all seeking of well-being is (or even of pleasure) ego-based; it is too much a part of the natural tendency of living beings—in the reality that “truth” recognizes. Nor do I think it is helpful to set truth against well-being—as a categorical distinction. The opposite of well-being is ill-being, and I do not think one can measure one’s attainment of truth by any tendency toward ill-being.

I think that’s really a false dichotomy—spiritually and psychologically, as well as physically. But— That cuts both ways: One cannot seek always and only one’s own self-gratification—and imagine that one is being truthful. (I draw that from the Buddhist principle of non-separability, based on experience.)

If you were to substitute “self-gratification” for “well-being, I think that would be on the mark—especially if one sees that some spiritual-seeking may be strictly “spiritualized self-gratification”. And, as I say, the ego’s seeking of its own self-gratification is not only antithetical to truth/reality (i.e., it is based on illusion), it may also be antithetical to the being’s actual well-being.

Is that helpful at all?

I know I laid the whole Zen “bale of hay” out there (well, that needs doing occasionally), but if you can use some term other than well-being, then I think we’re swinging the same bat (to mix metaphors) even from different models. There’s no doubt that that illusive competition needs to be broken—and if one can realize (and admit) the transient and “artifactual” nature of the ego-construct, then it can be. I know of no other way. (Which is not to say there isn’t.)

Originally posted by knightmeister
But what if the ego is so subtle and clever that it invests itself in the idea of an "egoless" state?

One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is f ...[text shortened]... trick to keep us away from Jesus. My feeling is that ToO has fallen into just such a trap.

But what if the ego is so subtle and clever that it invests itself in the idea of an "egoless" state?

That is possible—more, it is likely to happen along the way. The Buddha mentioned it. It is like those who take the saying “form is emptiness” and stop there. They might lose (or believe they’ve lost) their attachment to form—but then they become attached to (the notion of) emptiness! (Seng Ts’an also mentions this.)

My feeling is that ToO has fallen into just such a trap.

I would not speculate about ToO’s ego condition. Or yours.

I got to go now, but I’ll think on this a bit more when I have the chance…

Originally posted by knightmeister
But what if the ego is so subtle and clever that it invests itself in the idea of an "egoless" state?

One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is f ...[text shortened]... trick to keep us away from Jesus. My feeling is that ToO has fallen into just such a trap.

Edit:
"One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is found when he isn't. "

This thought kills every bit of Intelligence; "religion" kills the Intelligence of the Human by means of creating "Hell" and causing Terror.
Who is the one who tells me that there is no reason to seek for new ideas? Who is the one who tells me that your docrtine -a full package of ready answers- stands higher than my Intelligence?

I will take the maximum from this very moment! My brain is a machine, and I will use this machine the way it serves me better. This means that I have to be genuine and real at every given moment, and I will do it by means of activating my Intelligence and my feeling of Love; this way my Intelligence is complete and sharp and never deviates to a sermon or to the pseudoscience of theology.

I refuse to act against my Intelligence🙂

Nothing Holy 😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Oh no, not at all! The "place" itself is quite simple🙂

It seems to me that you have "secured" yourself in a fortress of thoughts; no need to try to blow it up though. It would may be enough just to take your sweet time and to realize whether this castle of yours is real or not😵

Not sure what your point was! I can tell you that if you get enough
'simple' things all going on at the same time the over all picture
does in deed become complex. If you don't think so I suggest you
look into electronics.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sorry, but I don't see how this really applies to our exchange of posts. Can you clarify?

Maybe I didn't understand your point, can you make it again a little
just a little differently, maybe I'll pick up your point then. Repeating
myself when I am not addressing you correctly would be a waist of
both of our time.
Kelly

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit:
"One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is found when he isn't. "

This thought kills every bit of Intelligence; "religion" kills the Intellig ...[text shortened]... eudoscience of theology.

I refuse to act against my Intelligence🙂

Nothing Holy 😵

Personally, I think Christianity sees the world as it is, it isn't a matter
of ego to look at ourselves as we are.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Personally, I think Christianity sees the world as it is, it isn't a matter
of ego to look at ourselves as we are.
Kelly

Why you think so?

It seems to me that Christianity sees the Human as a "sinner" who has to be "saved", because something went wrong with his designed software; and furthermore, the solution that Christianity offers is a package of ready theological "answers", all of them illogical and without philosophical value😵

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not sure what your point was! I can tell you that if you get enough
'simple' things all going on at the same time the over all picture
does in deed become complex. If you don't think so I suggest you
look into electronics.
Kelly

It does not become complex if you are aware of the system you monitor, for there is always a check list and a procedure that enables you to find your way out; also, in any case you have your IQ and your maturityin order to overcome genuinely every problem. So if you can fix it it's allright, and if everything is BLR it 's allright too -but anyway you are not getting stranded 😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit:
"One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is found when he isn't. "

This thought kills every bit of Intelligence; "religion" kills the Intellig ...[text shortened]... eudoscience of theology.

I refuse to act against my Intelligence🙂

Nothing Holy 😵

Who is the one who tells me that there is no reason to seek for new ideas?

Who is the one who tells me that your docrtine -a full package of ready answers- stands higher than my Intelligence?
--------------------black beetle---------------------------------------

Not me that's for sure.

🙄

Originally posted by black beetle
Why you think so?

It seems to me that Christianity sees the Human as a "sinner" who has to be "saved", because something went wrong with his designed software; and furthermore, the solution that Christianity offers is a package of ready theological "answers", all of them illogical and without philosophical value😵

It offers no theological or philosophical answers. It is NOT primarily a system of thought or beliefs. If it doesn't lead the individual to know the living Christ then all the philosophising is as dust.

Christianity is there for one purpose only ...and that is to put human beings in touch with Christ via the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Who is the one who tells me that there is no reason to seek for new ideas?

Who is the one who tells me that your docrtine -a full package of ready answers- stands higher than my Intelligence?
--------------------black beetle---------------------------------------

Not me that's for sure.

🙄

Oh, I thought it was you the one who claimed that "One theory in Christianity is that the devil is trying hard to get us to delude ourselves into thinking that we can become egoless or without pride. It's actually pride to think you are without pride. No-one is more lost than he who thinks he is found when he isn't. ".

So I replied to this quote😵

Originally posted by knightmeister
It offers no theological or philosophical answers. It is NOT primarily a system of thought or beliefs. If it doesn't lead the individual to know the living Christ then all the philosophising is as dust.

Christianity is there for one purpose only ...and that is to put human beings in touch with Christ via the Holy Spirit.

"Putting human beings in touch with Christ via the Holy Spirit" is pure theology. And it is clearly backed up with a package of ready theological "answers" and therefore it is a system of beliefs, a religion like every other religion that you have to follow its doctrine without having the chance to evaluate it -if you decline to take it you are "infidel", "sinner", "unbeliever" etc, and in such a case you deserve to be punished eternally in Hell, to die in misery etc. How nice.

I reject every theological idea because it stands against my intelligence.

Philosophy is the tool that allows the Human to get to know himself; one can use it or use it not😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Why you think so?

It seems to me that Christianity sees the Human as a "sinner" who has to be "saved", because something went wrong with his designed software; and furthermore, the solution that Christianity offers is a package of ready theological "answers", all of them illogical and without philosophical value😵

Okay, for a moment think about this. As a people we lie, we steal,
we murder, we rob, rape, and do all manner of things to each other.
If you look at our nature do you think this is normal, or that there is
something wrong, something broken within us that causes us to act
this way? This is a foundational question, if you believe these things
are not 'wrong' or 'normal' humans actions than we have no issues
with sin or fault of any kind! Because we are what we are and people
are just acting out their nature as lions are only acting as lions when
they kill each other and other animals. If we are just acting as we
do, than only personal tastes or some made up standard that can
change at our whim will be the only standard for us. Getting away with
things that others deem wrong will be just as good as being someone
who doesn't do those wrong things in the end, since in the end they
end up the same way nothing really matters beyond the moment we
find ourselves in.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, for a moment think about this. As a people we lie, we steal,
we murder, we rob, rape, and do all manner of things to each other.
If you look at our nature do you think this is normal, or that there is
something wrong, something broken within us that causes us to act
this way? This is a foundational question, if you believe these things
are not 'w ...[text shortened]...
end up the same way nothing really matters beyond the moment we
find ourselves in.
Kelly

The people act they way they act, but since the Human established his society he had to set rules; man-made rules and not rules based on the so called "word of god", that is. It seems to me tht the secular law is enough -I see no sin in front of 'god", I see crimes against persons, against humanity, against animals, against Life, against the environment.

Methinks the Human can achieve a better tomorrow once he works hard his virtues based on the evaluation of the mind, and s/he can do it by means of Philosophy and Science alone. Religion is needless, however I stand with all my power for your right to have your own spirituality, your own religion and your on way of life once you commit no crimes🙂