education of evolution vs. creationism

Originally posted by KellyJay
I would have thought you knew what to look for if you could tell me
there isn't any evidence for design.
Kelly

Irriducable complexity. Gods name written in DNA would probably be fine too.

If something isn't there how are we to have any hope of finding it? There is nothing in DNA that we look at and say, that could not possible be there if it wasn't put there. So why postulate a designer?

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Irriducable complexity. Gods name written in DNA would probably be fine too.

If something isn't there how are we to have any hope of finding it? There is nothing in DNA that we look at and say, that could not possible be there if it wasn't put there. So why postulate a designer?

That is the 'matter of opinion' I'd like you to show me something as
complax as DNA get written without a plan, purpose, or design invovled.
Our computer hardware/software isn't as complex and there are huges
teams involved in writing the code and designing the hardware.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
That is the 'matter of opinion' I'd like you to show me something as
complax as DNA get written without a plan, purpose, or design invovled.
Our computer hardware/software isn't as complex and there are huges
teams involved in writing the code and designing the hardware.
Kelly

Please define complax.

If you meant "complex" then tell me which of the following from Marriam Webster you are referring to:
1: a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts
2 a: a group of culture traits relating to a single activity (as hunting), process (as use of flint), or culture unit
b (1): a group of repressed desires and memories that exerts a dominating influence upon the personality (2): an exaggerated reaction to or preoccupation with a subject or situation
c: a group of obviously related units of which the degree and nature of the relationship is imperfectly known
d: the sum of factors (as symptoms) characterizing a disease or condition
3: a chemical association of two or more species (as ions or molecules) joined usually by weak electrostatic bonds rather than covalent bonds
4: a building or group of buildings housing related units

or present a definition from a dictionary of your choice.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Please define complax.

If you meant "complex" then tell me which of the following from Marriam Webster you are referring to:
1: a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts
2 a: a group of culture traits relating to a single activity (as hunting), process (as use of flint), or culture unit
b (1): a group of repressed desires and memories t ...[text shortened]... buildings housing related units

or present a definition from a dictionary of your choice.

I would naturally assume that Kelly means the first definition since none of the others even remotely fits the context.

Lets try not to dodge the question, that's the creationist approach. Instead we either need to answer the question or explain why it is not relevant. I'm wondering whether fractals or weather systems are suitable answers?

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
I would naturally assume that Kelly means the first definition since none of the others even remotely fits the context.

Lets try not to dodge the question, that's the creationist approach. Instead we either need to answer the question or explain why it is not relevant. I'm wondering whether fractals or weather systems are suitable answers?

--- Penguin.

If he means 1. a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts. then I would ask "How is it to be measured?" since his question related to the relative complexity of two possible entities.
I would argue that a jar of mud is just as 'complex' as DNA and answers his question satisfactorily.

Originally posted by KellyJay
That is the 'matter of opinion' I'd like you to show me something as
complax as DNA get written without a plan, purpose, or design invovled.
Our computer hardware/software isn't as complex and there are huges
teams involved in writing the code and designing the hardware.
Kelly

Yes but we have the perfect mechanism for the increaseing complexity of DNA. Natural selection. And I can give you an example of how random mutation with non random selection can lead to improvements and increased 'complexity.' I was at a lecture on evolution and creationism, and the lecturer told us of a particular type of spray painting using a funnel. The funnel was not efficient, and wasted energy. After attempting to redesign it the engineres desided to 'evolve it.' They used a computer to make random alterations in the funnel shape, and then selected the best of the new designs and repeated the process. The end result was a shape that no one would have come up with, it was fairly abstract with no apparent reasons why it should be more efficient. The process of selection in evolution works in exactly the same way, with likelyhood of a mutation increasing survival being the important factor.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Yes but we have the perfect mechanism for the increaseing complexity of DNA. Natural selection. And I can give you an example of how random mutation with non random selection can lead to improvements and increased 'complexity.' I was at a lecture on evolution and creationism, and the lecturer told us of a particular type of spray painting using a funnel ...[text shortened]... the same way, with likelyhood of a mutation increasing survival being the important factor.

Natural selection is a good filter, but the writing of code no.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Natural selection is a good filter, but the writing of code no.
Kelly

Roll dice.

Pick up all the 1's.

Roll dice.

Pick up all the 1's.

Roll dice.

Pick up all the 1's.

WOW! There are NO 1's! Must be Divine Intervention!

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Roll dice.

Pick up all the 1's.

Roll dice.

Pick up all the 1's.

Roll dice.

Pick up all the 1's.

WOW! There are NO 1's! Must be Divine Intervention!

You had a point?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You had a point?
Kelly

Yes. A random process plus a filter creates "code" when the "numbers" each have different chemical properties.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Natural selection is a good filter, but the writing of code no.
Kelly

That is correct. Mutations 'write' the code. Natural section allows the superior code to be passed on, and the inferior code to be removed. It isn't one on its own. It is random mutations with non random natural selection. The concept is seriously very simple.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Yes. A random process plus a filter creates "code" when the "numbers" each have different chemical properties.

Oh sorry you said pretty much the same thing.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
That is correct. Mutations 'write' the code. Natural section allows the superior code to be passed on, and the inferior code to be removed. It isn't one on its own. It is random mutations with non random natural selection. The concept is seriously very simple.

I know that is the theory, we can see small changes but nothing on
the scale we were talking about.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I know that is the theory, we can see small changes but nothing on
the scale we were talking about.
Kelly

No, see, they're pretty much all small changes. But a lot of small changes, over millions of years, can become pretty significant. What part of that is so hard to understand?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I know that is the theory, we can see small changes but nothing on
the scale we were talking about.
Kelly

Our perception is limited by the timescale involved. Combining DNA evidence and fossil evidence we can say that evolution most probably occured. DNA analysis shows us how related we are related to other animals and allows us to build up species trees. These give an idea of when speices diverged from one another.

Think about a small change. A very large number of small changes equals a large change. It just takes a long time. But it isn't to hard to see that the addition of small steps could have resulted in speciation.