15 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterI don't think you bother to read what other people write. I'm not a "determinist" at all; where did you get such a bizarre idea? Where did you get the idea that I thought free will was impossible? You make up this crap as you go along.
I didn't say that I was a determinist I was just presenting the determinists' argument. Presumably you are a determinist? You probably are because you think free will impossible. I was using your own argument against you and now you turn round and argue against it as if it's my argument??
So for the record , I am not a hard determinist. If you are ...[text shortened]... ssible is not reasonable or logical by the high standards of logic you set for yourself.
But IF there is an entity that exists at all points in time and IF that entity is also omniscient (i.e. "all knowing"😉, then it MUST HAVE, BY DEFINITION, always have been incapable of doing anything but what it did AND it also MUST be aware of that fact. Thus, it is impossible for a entity with the attributes YOU HAVE GIVEN IT, to have "free will" in ANY sense.
15 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterSorry, Mr. HumptyDumpty, but you can't change the meaning of a word to a non-standard one whenever you please. A God who doesn't know what is going to happen, even temporarily, is not omniscient.
"In fact the only thing you have added to standard Christian nonsense in this thread is the bizarre notion of an omniscient God who doesn't know what will happen until it does, which is, of course, a contradiction. How do you explain this coontradiction? "It's magic"."MARAUDER
I have explained in Dr who (part2) why I don't think it is a contradictio ...[text shortened]... n be only one interpretation of this word in order to show me as self contradictory.
15 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterYour constant tactic of deliberately misstating other people's position is tiresome and intellectually dishonest.
How do you explain this coontradiction?
I explained it in the Dr Who thread. Dr Who can travel in (or outside of) time so he knows the future but his knowledge is dependant on what happens.
It will always seem contradictory as long as you keep thinking in timelines only and don't think outside of time .oooops ...I forgot time is the ultimate dimension and eternity is impossible..we know this of course
16 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderThe entity I am describing does not "just" exist in time but also exists outside of time also. If you have a hard time relating to this read Dr who (part 4).
I don't think you bother to read what other people write. I'm not a "determinist" at all; where did you get such a bizarre idea? Where did you get the idea that I thought free will was impossible? You make up this crap as you go along.
But IF there is an entity that exists at all points in time and IF that entity is also omniscient (i.e. "al le for a entity with the attributes YOU HAVE GIVEN IT, to have "free will" in ANY sense.
16 Dec 06
3 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderWhere does it say in the definition of omniscience ( I presume you have the definitive hand book in front of you?) that it matters a great deal how God comes by his omniscience. Is there a particular clause that covers temporary voluntary suspension of omniscience?
Sorry, Mr. HumptyDumpty, but you can't change the meaning of a word to a non-standard one whenever you please. A God who doesn't know what is going to happen, even temporarily, is not omniscient.
If God ultimately knows everything about everything then why does it matter so much that he waits a little while for us to make decisions before that knowledge comes his way. In the end his knowledge will be utterly complete in every way , except for a brief moment when that knowledge was temporarily postponed in order to give you the chance of surprising him. In the end he knows eveything , the result is exactly the same as if he never bothered with free will at all.
What's more the temporary postponement of his omniscience is entirely his choice and NOT something forced on him by another. In the end this little fly in the ointment that you think you have found makes no difference at all , his knowledge is just as complete as it would be anyway.
16 Dec 06
Originally posted by no1marauderYou argument would be better served by stating and clarifying your position better. I think you are seeing something cynical in my posts which is not there. I am one of the more honest and forthright Theist debaters you are likely to come across on this forum. If I have misrepresented you then I honestly apologise but it is quite difficult to figure out what people believe on this forum. However , given that I find myself spending 99% of my time trying to clarify misunderstandings about who God is , it's hard to feel too much sympathy.
Your constant tactic of deliberately misstating other people's position is tiresome and intellectually dishonest.
Maybe we need to re-clarify exactly what our positions are and what we are debating?
16 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterRubbish. What the hell does a "temporary postponing" do to an Entity that exists at all points in time? How can it be "surprised"? And if " the result is exactly the same as if he never bothered with free will at all", why the hell would it bother with such a charade?
Where does it say in the definition of omniscience ( I presume you have the definitive hand book in front of you?) that it matters a great deal how God comes by his omniscience. Is there a particular clause that covers temporary voluntary suspension of omniscience?
If God ultimately knows everything about everything then why does it matter so much ...[text shortened]... ave found makes no difference at all , his knowledge is just as complete as it would be anyway.
17 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzI'm so glad you have asked this! 😀
How does a God that exists outside of time "wait a little while"?
A God that is eternal and outside of time can only be surprised by our actions and "wait a little while" if he also enters into our time as well. He needs to be both within time and outside of time . But how can this be? God would have to split himself up in two and be in our time and also eternal?. You would need to have a God made up of parts . Can you see that this is exactly where Jesus comes in? You need something like a Trinity to make this happen.(Which incidentaly is another reason why Christianity is different from other faiths)
So if Jesus is present with us in "time" as we understand it within the universe then I suppose you could say He can do the waiting bit while his Father does the knowing bit.
By the way if you find it hard to imagine how God could be both in time and outside it as well, you might find my sphere and circle (Dr Who part 4) story interesting. In the story the circle has terrible trouble understanding the sphere. The sphere is both in the circle's dimension but also transcends it. The circle can't understand how the sphere can be many circles at the same time.
Being in two dimensions simultaneously is no big deal really it's only hard when you are trying to think about the dimension you are not in. When you do this things can look contradictory. It might also be worth considering that you are able yourself to be in more than one dimension (2+3 dimensional space and the 4th dimension of time) quite easily and you probably don't even think about it! So i'm sure if Scottishnz can be multi-dimensional then God can! (especially an omnipotent God!!) (LOL) 🙂🙂🙂
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by no1marauderYou may want to refer to the answer I gave Scottishnz.
Rubbish. What the hell does a "temporary postponing" do to an Entity that exists at all points in time? How can it be "surprised"? And if " the result is exactly the same as if he never bothered with free will at all", why the hell would it bother with such a charade?
"And if " the result is exactly the same as if he never bothered with free will at all", why the hell would it bother with such a charade?"NO1 MARAUDER
The result is exactly the same in terms of his omniscience and nothing else. His knowledge is the same but it is NOT the same for the individual. In the Dr Who story , Dr Who ends up knowing what Columbus actually did. If Columbus had had NO free will then Dr Who would KNOW exactly what Columbus had done. If Columbus DID have free will then Dr Who would KNOW exactly what Columbus had done. BUT ...for Columbus it would make a difference because in one scenario he is a glorified robot and in the other he has real options. Either way Dr Who knows his history.
You see the result is the same...GOD KNOWS.... but in one scenario there can be only one outcome , in the other there can be many outcomes. Either way God knows , even if he has to "wait a while" . However , if our actions are determined he doesn't have to wait , but the result is the same , complete knowledge of our actions.
Can I ask did you actually read the Dr Who story , or did you just jump in assuming I was a mindless theist with no brain? You seem pre-occupied with trying to find as many pedantic holes as you can , and this time it has lead YOU to mis- represent what I was saying.
I do SO hope you have underestimated me.
🙄🙄🙄😴
17 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou are a mindless theist with no brain. Referring back to your other threads doesn't impress me; you've written the same garbage in numerous other threads. It remains illogical, self-contradictory nonsense with liberal doses of magic thrown in.
You may want to refer to the answer I gave Scottishnz.
"And if " the result is exactly the same as if he never bothered with free will at all", why the hell would it bother with such a charade?"NO1 MARAUDER
The result is exactly the same in terms of his omniscience and nothing else. His knowledge is the same but it is NOT the same for the individ ing.
I do SO hope you have underestimated me.
🙄🙄🙄😴
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterMagic then. Actually, I cannot be in any more or less dimensions than I currently am.
I'm so glad you have asked this! 😀
A God that is eternal and outside of time can only be surprised by our actions and "wait a little while" if he also enters into our time as well. He needs to be both within time and outside of time . But how can this be? God would have to split himself up in two and be in our time and also eternal?. You would ne ...[text shortened]... can be multi-dimensional then God can! (especially an omnipotent God!!) (LOL) 🙂🙂🙂
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzBut... you have just admitted that you are in more than one dimension , the three dimensions of space and the 4th dimension of time , and yet you consider it such an impossible and "magic" idea for God to be in more than one dimension . Have you considered that God has always been in more than one dimension (just like you) , except one of his dimensions is hard for you to understand (because it's not time)?
Magic then. Actually, I cannot be in any more or less dimensions than I currently am.
It's not "magic" it's just you hate admitting I've got a point here.
If you accept that I have a point you can still be an Atheist if you like . That's no problem .
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf you prove it to be true, and not merely your wild supposition, I might concede you have a point. Likewise, I exist in 4 dimensions and cannot break any of the rules of those 4 dimensions. Why should God be able to break the rules of the dimensions?
But... you have just admitted that you are in more than one dimension , the three dimensions of space and the 4th dimension of time , and yet you consider it such an impossible and "magic" idea for God to be in more than one dimension . Have you considered that God has always been in more than one dimension (just like you) , except one of his dimensio ...[text shortened]... ccept that I have a point you can still be an Atheist if you like . That's no problem .