Door 20 (a vision of christian free will)

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have never said that I 'dismissed it without investigation'. But I am saying that the form of investigation that you are suggesting is not a wise method of investigation and one that I am not currently willing to risk trying as it amounts to self deception and carries the same risk as say 'investigating' cocaine via sampling it or say attending a Scientology workshop.

So what form of investigation is acceptable to you? And why are you choosing not to do it?

Originally posted by knightmeister
So what form of investigation is acceptable to you? And why are you choosing not to do it?

For a start I was brought up a Christian (Anglican) and only became athiest at the age of about 13 or so. I also come from a country that declared itself a 'Christian Nation' because the vast majority of its people are Christian. I know quite a lot about Christianity but obviously there are people on these forums who know far more than me.
But you must realise that at the present time I am investigating it the same way I would investigate alien abduction claims. I know enough science to find it highly unlikely that aliens have ever visited our planet in spacecraft and enough psychology to know that it far more likely that the claimants are exhibiting some psychological syndrome. So I would not actually investigate it with the belief that aliens actually exist. I would not put up transmitters and try to contact the aliens. I would instead try to out more about why the abductees are making their claims. So for example, I am trying to find out why you believe that Christianity proposes a different version of free will and why you think it is incompatible with a scientific view of the universe. That is investigation. I am studying you psychology and trying to understand why you delude yourself. The delusion is clear as you carefully avoid answering certain questions and avoid certain implications of your own argument and persistently refuse to accept that anyone elses argument might actually be compatible with observation etc. You also switch threads every time someone comes close to making it impossible for you to avoid admitting that you are wrong.

Originally posted by twhitehead
For a start I was brought up a Christian (Anglican) and only became athiest at the age of about 13 or so. I also come from a country that declared itself a 'Christian Nation' because the vast majority of its people are Christian. I know quite a lot about Christianity but obviously there are people on these forums who know far more than me.
But you must r ...[text shortened]... ime someone comes close to making it impossible for you to avoid admitting that you are wrong.

Your perception is that I am avoiding answering certain questions , this may or may not be true. However , this could also be mind reading. I could be deluding myself that the Holy Spirit is playing some kind of living role in my life and it could be that my experiences of his presence with me might be hallucinatory and self deceiving. However , I also needs to consider whether I would be deceiving myself into thinking I was deceiving myself in order to avoid the truth of his presence. Self decpetion is a funny old thing because if we are doing it properly we won't know we are doing it.

The difference between you and me is that I am prepared to consider the possibility that I may be deceiving myself but you seem to be unwilling to consider the possibility that God may be investigable (is that a word) on his own terms not on yours only.

If God doesn't exist and you investigated his existence properly then all you would come across would be a self deceiving experience that you should be able to detect. If he does exist then you are in for something else which you will find harder to explain away. Either way , the world won't end.

What is interesting is how you like to think of yourself as not making a choice to "seek" whereas I am quite comfortable with the idea. We all pays our money and takes our pick as it were. It's a choice.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The difference between you and me is that I am prepared to consider the possibility that I may be deceiving myself but you seem to be unwilling to consider the possibility that God may be investigable (is that a word) on his own terms not on yours only.

That is simply not true. I actually asked you why you didn't try out being an atheist and you carefully avoided the question. But you did answer it as regards Buddhism and basically just said you choose not to without giving any reasons.
Now how can that be 'willing to consider'?
Maybe you will only realize how much you have deceived yourself if you allow yourself for a moment to say "what if God doesn't exist". That is infact how I became an athiest. One day, with great fear of being chucked in Hell, I allowed myself to consider the possibility that God did not exist. Suddenly everything made a whole lot of sense and it became so clear that everyone around me was deceiving themselves.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If God doesn't exist and you investigated his existence properly then all you would come across would be a self deceiving experience that you should be able to detect. If he does exist then you are in for something else which you will find harder to explain away. Either way , the world won't end.

My observation of other people tells me the precise opposite. That once you start to deceive yourself there is no turning back. Even you should agree with that. Surely you must admit that members of every other religion except your own are deceiving themselves? Would you try being a Muslim for a few days? Why not? The world wont end.......

Originally posted by twhitehead
My observation of other people tells me the precise opposite. That once you start to deceive yourself there is no turning back. Even you should agree with that. Surely you must admit that members of every other religion except your own are deceiving themselves? Would you try being a Muslim for a few days? Why not? The world wont end.......

Actually I don't think Muslims are deceiving themselves I just think they haven't had the full enlightenment yet of who God is . They only have a few parts of the puzzle. Even christianity doesn't have all the parts but it's the best picture we have.Being a Muslim doesn't necessarily mean that one is deceiving themself.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Actually I don't think Muslims are deceiving themselves I just think they haven't had the full enlightenment yet of who God is . They only have a few parts of the puzzle. Even christianity doesn't have all the parts but it's the best picture we have.Being a Muslim doesn't necessarily mean that one is deceiving themself.

Hey. Stop avoiding the thread that you had the audacity to start.

Nemesio

Originally posted by knightmeister
Actually I don't think Muslims are deceiving themselves I just think they haven't had the full enlightenment yet of who God is . They only have a few parts of the puzzle. Even christianity doesn't have all the parts but it's the best picture we have.Being a Muslim doesn't necessarily mean that one is deceiving themself.

So when a Muslim says that the Qu'ran is the word of God, who is deceiving him? He is clearly deceived, so someone or something must be doing the deceiving. You could say that he just 'made a mistake', but surely there is something more to it? Mistakes don't often lead to people blowing themselves up or flying planes into towers.(not that all Muslims do that or support it, but just as an example).

Originally posted by Nemesio
Hey. Stop avoiding the thread that you had the audacity to start.

Nemesio

He asked the question , what should I do , tell him I'm not going to answer his point? Then you would probably accuse me of not answering his point about muslims. I guess I can't win can I?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So when a Muslim says that the Qu'ran is the word of God, who is deceiving him? He is clearly deceived, so someone or something must be doing the deceiving. You could say that he just 'made a mistake', but surely there is something more to it? Mistakes don't often lead to people blowing themselves up or flying planes into towers.(not that all Muslims do that or support it, but just as an example).

Good point there is something more to it than that . In christianity there is the belief that there is a spiritual force out there that will do anything to keep us away from knowing God. Jesus spoke explicitly and often about our vulnerability to being deceived by what is false.

Originally posted by knightmeister
He asked the question , what should I do , tell him I'm not going to answer his point? Then you would probably accuse me of not answering his point about muslims. I guess I can't win can I?

I think he is referring to your wayward computer which shut itself down when asked a difficult question ie why it committed the crime (I think they call it 'taking the 5th amendment' in the states).

Originally posted by knightmeister
Good point there is something more to it than that . In christianity there is the belief that there is a spiritual force out there that will do anything to keep us away from knowing God. Jesus spoke explicitly and often about our vulnerability to being deceived by what is false.

So you can think of one possible explanation: "its the Devils work".
But have you ruled out the possibility that they could simply be intentionally deceiving themselves for various reasons eg to avoid getting their heads chopped off, to 'fit in' to their society, to gain respect as a 'devout Muslim', because they think it enhances their own moral code etc etc. For example I know of a Christian woman who became Muslim in order to marry a Muslim man. Now surely you cant blame it all on the devil (or where has free will got to), she must at the very least have made a decision to try to believe (self deception), or pretend to believe in something that she did not previously believe and although it is possible that it was based on information she got from the man or from the Qu'ran that convinced her of its truth I rather suspect that that was not the case.

I have also, several times been asked by Christians when I tell them I am atheist "but what stops you from committing murder?". After some discussion it often appears to me that their primary reason for being theist is because they believe it is necessary to support their moral code. Circular reasoning and a prime example of intentional self deception.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you can think of one possible explanation: "its the Devils work".
But have you ruled out the possibility that they could simply be intentionally deceiving themselves for various reasons eg to avoid getting their heads chopped off, to 'fit in' to their society, to gain respect as a 'devout Muslim', because they think it enhances their own moral code e ...[text shortened]... their moral code. Circular reasoning and a prime example of intentional self deception.

I can't argue with much of this. Human beings are very good at self deception and in my opinion the "enemy" is very good at helping us along. So how does one know when one is not being self deceptive in your view? Is it a lack of vigilance? Can one not investigate God whilst also holding on to one's doubts and cynicism? Does it have to be an all or nothing thing?

Originally posted by knightmeister
He asked the question , what should I do , tell him I'm not going to answer his point? Then you would probably accuse me of not answering his point about muslims. I guess I can't win can I?

I asked a question, too. You're basically telling me that you've given up on a thread that I've invested
a great deal to get you finally to the point where it becomes patent that your position is absurd and
now you're stonewalling.

That's a pretty disingenuous technique and belies any claim to being a Christian that you might make.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I asked a question, too. You're basically telling me that you've given up on a thread that I've invested
a great deal to get you finally to the point where it becomes patent that your position is absurd and
now you're stonewalling.

That's a pretty disingenuous technique and belies any claim to being a Christian that you might make.

Nemesio

I'd kinda forgotten about it . you know how it is you start on too many threads and get distracted.