I came across this passage in another thread. A certain poster is using this passage to make the point that people should not be discussing matters and arguing with Christians because Christians are being offended.
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:3-6 KJV)
Apparently arguing with Christians means that you are offending them and the point is being made that Jesus says you are better off dead.
Strongs Concordance gives the following meaning for the word 'Offend' : skandalizō skan-dal-id'-zo To scandalize to entrap, that is, trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure): - (make to) offend.
In fact just a few verses down Jesus says if any part of your body OFFEND YOU ie causes you to sin, then remove that part. To offend therefore in this sense = to encourage or force someone to sin
The most damaging doctrine in Christianity is the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. This doctrine single-handedly has destroyed the lives and future chances of eternal life for millions of Christians. The OSAS doctrine says to people:
- Only a profession of faith is required for eternal life
- They have eternal life and not even God can revoke it
- All their sins are forgiven - past present and future
- Sins only means less rewards
- Following the commandments of Christ is not necessary
- Doing good works is working for ones salvation
It is the OSAS doctrine that causes people to sin, and it is an insult to the teachings of Christ. The founders and promoters of this damaging doctrine which causes people to continue in a life of sin and evil, and to ignore the teachings of Christ are the ones who should have a millstone around their neck and they should be cast into the sea.
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Originally posted by @rajk999What denominational background do you come from - or religious background? I have never heard someone so misrepresent the Perseverance of the Saints (or, once saved always saved).
I came across this passage in another thread. A certain poster is using this passage to make the point that people should not be discussing matters and arguing with Christians because Christians are being offended.
[i]And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Who ...[text shortened]... are the ones who should have a millstone around their neck and they should be cast into the sea.
Originally posted by @alphazeroWe have all sorts of misrepresentations around here.
What denominational background do you come from - or religious background? I have never heard someone so misrepresent the Perseverance of the Saints (or, once saved always saved).
One is that if you accept Jesus at one point in your life or at least you believe you do then you are saved no matter what the rest of your life is like.
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i read through this. And I must correct an impression which is being given. That is that ONLY Christians who have an assurance of salvation must not be stumbled. I don't think I said that. I don't think Jesus meant:
"Now, only Christian brothers and sisters who have a certain interpretation of the assurance of salvation - DON'T STUMBLE."
No, I will not permit that caricature to misrepresent my treatment of Matthew 18:6.
The one not to stumble is the one who is childlike in his trust of the Lord Jesus. This is not childlike WITH a certain doctrinal interpretation. It is trusting, childlike, period.
"He therefore who humbles himself like this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens."
No, I did not mean "humble and childlike only is to agree with sonship on all doctrinal matters of grace and responsibility, assurance, etc."
Originally posted by @alphazeroAnother denomination freak. Do you have a comment of substance to present?
What denominational background do you come from - or religious background? I have never heard someone so misrepresent the Perseverance of the Saints (or, once saved always saved).
Originally posted by @rajk999Matthew 12:33-37
Another denomination freak.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Compared to what Jesus says you sound more like Satan the accuser of the brethren.
Originally posted by @secondsonThe Satan type tells people not to follow the commandments, and refer to the commandments a legalistic and Pharisaical.
Matthew 12:33-37
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things ...[text shortened]... condemned.
Compared to what Jesus says you sound more like Satan the accuser of the brethren.
The followers of Christ encourage others to live righteously and to follow the commandments of Chrsit.
Let me know if you want some references
Originally posted by @rajk999The "Satan type" say that salvation is acquired by doing good works.
The Satan type tells people not to follow the commandments, and refer to the commandments a legalistic and Pharisaical.
The followers of Christ encourage others to live righteously and to follow the commandments of Chrsit.
Let me know if you want some references
That is the point of contention.
No Christian in this forum has ever said one shouldn't follow Jesus and obey His commandments.
That's a false accusation made by YOU.
Originally posted by @secondsonThen produce a reference which supports the above statement.
The "Satan type" say that salvation is acquired by doing good works.
.
Your Matt 7 attempt to show that Jesus was condemning good works failed miserably because Jesus never once said that these people were doing good works. These were miracle workers who also were workers of iniquity.
I addressed this in another thread and you ignored it.
Originally posted by @rajk999Your comprehension of the language and meaning of Matthew 7 is incompatible with the narrative of the passage.
Then produce a reference which supports the above statement.
Your Matt 7 attempt to show that Jesus was condemning good works failed miserably because Jesus never once said that these people were doing good works. These were miracle workers who also were workers of iniquity.
I addressed this in another thread and you ignored it.
That "Jesus never once said" is completely erroneous to a coherent discussion, and an aberration of rational thought. In other words, it doesn't mean anything, and adds nothing of substance to the debate.
"These were miracle workers who also were workers of iniquity."
I did not ignore that. You ignored my reply. In fact you ignore at least 90% of everything said to you by all the Christians posting in this forum.
What you do is select certain phrasing by those you hate and twist their words out of context into bizarre misrepresentations of their original intent. This problem of yours has been repeatedly brought to your attention but to no avail.
You are by far the saddest representation of the love and kindness and humility of Christ as I have ever witnessed in this forum by someone who claims to be a follower of Christ.
Originally posted by @secondsonWell thanks for your personal comments. However Im more interested in Matt 7.
Your comprehension of the language and meaning of Matthew 7 is incompatible with the narrative of the passage.
That "Jesus never once said" is completely erroneous to a coherent discussion, and an aberration of rational thought. In other words, it doesn't mean anything, and adds nothing of substance to the debate.
[b]"These were miracle workers who ...[text shortened]... Christ as I have ever witnessed in this forum by someone who claims to be a follower of Christ.
Here is how it went down:
1. Jesus warns of False Prophets
2. They come in sheep's clothing and you will know them by their fruits
3. Next people called him Lord. [clearly there were of the faithful]
4. They did miracles in the name of Jesus.{wonderful works ; Greek - dunamis]
5. Jesus called them workers of iniquity [so far nothing said on either side about good works so how you even end up condemning them for doing good works is the amazing part]
6. Jesus said he never knew them
7. Jesus continues with the example of the wise who hears him and follows his commandments
8. Jesus further says a foolish man will not follow his commandments
Points to note here:
- False prophets can be seen by their works / fruits
- Miracles is not good works [you may want to argue that if you like]
- Not one word here about good works. Your church made that up.
- In # 6 the people who Jesus knows are those who follow his commandments. This is clearly stated here and in many other parts ofthe teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
In these times some of the biggest wolves are crooked church pastors that claim to have faith and they fool the gullible people and pretend to heal and to do miracles. Jesus will cast these scam artists out of the Kingdom of God.
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Originally posted by @rajk999
In these times some of the biggest wolves are crooked church pastors that claim to have faith and they fool the gullible people and pretend to heal and to do miracles. Jesus will cast these scam artists out of the Kingdom of God.
Because you so clearly KNOW THAT ... does that make you automatically more pleasing to God than they ?
Does the knowledge of this hypocrisy necessarily make you exempt from similar judgement ?
Originally posted by @sonshipJesus said it clearly so yes I clearly KNOW THAT.In these times some of the biggest wolves are crooked church pastors that claim to have faith and they fool the gullible people and pretend to heal and to do miracles. Jesus will cast these scam artists out of the Kingdom of God.
Because you so clearly KNOW THAT ... does that make you automatically more pleasing to God than they ?
Does the knowledge of this hypocrisy necessarily make you exempt from similar judgement ?
These pastors who pretend to heal and cast out devils without doing any good works, with hear the same words from Jesus.
I dont cast out devils or do any miracles. So yes Im exempt.
Oh by the way were you not saying that these people were in fact doing good works?
Have you changed your mind?
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Originally posted by @rajk999Jesus did not DENY that they did WHAT they did.
Jesus said it clearly so yes I clearly KNOW THAT.
These pastors who pretend to heal and cast out devils without doing any good works, with hear the same words from Jesus.
I dont cast out devils or do any miracles. So yes Im exempt.
Oh by the way were you not saying that these people were in fact doing good works?
Have you changed your mind?
He denied that He approved them or acknowledged them.
Did Jesus not say -
"You lie, You NEVER prophesied in My name.
You NEVER casted out demons in My name.
You NEVER did many mighty works in My name."
He does not dispute that they did these things.
He says He never knew them.
Even Judas could argue "Jesus I wanted to sell the ointment that the woman wasted on pouring on You and give the proceeds to the poor. I learned to give to the poor from Your teachings. Wasn't that a good work done in Your name? "
The serving in the kingdom of the heavens has a lawful track to walk in. They walked OUTSIDE of those principles. Apparently they did do some things. But it was done lawlessly and Christ never knew, approved or acknowledged the spiritual value of what they did.
Maybe God honored the FAITH of those who were being taken in by them. And maybe He caused mighty things to be done miraculously NOT FOR the lawless worker's sake, but for the sake of those who were innocent and trusted in the name of Jesus.
But when it comes down to entering into the kingdom, in spite of this, the lawless workers are told to depart from Jesus.