Originally posted by rwingett
And you could be wasting your time believing in a non-existent god. Or you could be worshiping the wrong god. If you're trying to employ Pascal's wager, the argument does not impress me. I'll take my chances.

We will end up where we are going, both you and I.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So your defence is going to be, God it is your fault. I think Adam did
that one too, didn't get him far. Did you ever have a relationship with
God to walk away from, or did you just think He was there and stopped
thinking that way?
Kelly

Well, that is a tough question to answer. I mean, when I was a Christian I certainly believed I had a relationship with God. Heck, I was in a state of almost constant prayer for a good portion of my teen years.

Looking back, I now understand that what I was feeling was not communion with God, but a combination of wishful thinking and herd behavior.

Frankly, I just don't see God (as described in the NT) as the type to hold me accountable for not believing in something that had no supporting evidence. OT God, on the other hand, showed himself to be a psychopath...so here's hoping God does not exist, and if he does that the NT authors were more accurate than the OT authors!

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Well, that is a tough question to answer. I mean, when I was a Christian I certainly believed I had a relationship with God. Heck, I was in a state of almost constant prayer for a good portion of my teen years.

Looking back, I now understand that what I was feeling was not communion with God, but a combination of wishful thinking and herd behavior.
...[text shortened]... God does not exist, and if he does that the NT authors were more accurate than the OT authors!

Looking back, I now understand that what I was feeling was not communion with God, but a combination of wishful thinking and herd behavior. ------------skipper=========

Cool , I'm wondering why (once you realised that what you had was wishful thinking and herd behaviour) you didn't go looking for real communion with God. It sounds like you figured out you were wearing a fake rolex but then instead of trading it in for a real rolex you gave up on the rolex itself.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Look, if I have to face God at the end of this dog and pony show, and he wants to know why I stopped believing in him...I can say with a completely clear heart that the evidence for his existence did not pass muster, and if he is upset by that I will tell him to blame the critical thinking skills he created me with.

And my guess is he will applaud you for your honesty and candor but then ask you why you didn't take things a step further and honesty and candidly approach him for some way to help you find him?

BTW- The only reason he would be upset would be for you not for him. The fact that you seem to think God might be offended by your honesty tells me much about the ridiculous false god you have probably been sold on. The god you have rejected never existed anyway , but maybe you forgot that there is a God behind the god.

Originally posted by knightmeister


Cool , I'm wondering why (once you realised that what you had was wishful thinking and herd behaviour) you didn't go looking for real communion with God. It sounds like you figured out you were wearing a fake rolex but then instead of trading it in for a real rolex you gave up on the rolex itself.

Heh!

I spent the first 27 years of my life looking for a real relationship with God, for a time I thought I had one. I'm not spending any more time on looking for something that either does not exist or that I can't have. I've done my time, mate, if God wants me He has my number.

Originally posted by knightmeister
And my guess is he will applaud you for your honesty and candor but then ask you why you didn't take things a step further and honesty and candidly approach him for some way to help you find him?

BTW- The only reason he would be upset would be for you not for him. The fact that you seem to think God might be offended by your honesty tells me much a ...[text shortened]... u have rejected never existed anyway , but maybe you forgot that there is a God behind the god.

Wow, you have not been reading the Bible I was reading. All through the pages of my Bible are platitudes about how God so desperately wants to be with us. How much he wants us to *accpet* the great love he has for us etc. etc. No, i think he would be very much upset for Himself because he would be denied the chance to fellowship with His most precious creation.

BTW - I resent your suggestion that I did not honestly and candidly seek God. You do not know me, you do not know what I went through. I wanted nothing more than God's love, I wanted nothing more than a relationship with Him. No, Sir, if He existed, He would have answered my call...I surely would have answered His!

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Heh!

I spent the first 27 years of my life looking for a real relationship with God, for a time I thought I had one. I'm not spending any more time on looking for something that either does not exist or that I can't have. I've done my time, mate, if God wants me He has my number.

..........and if he called you up what might that look like?

Originally posted by knightmeister
..........and if he called you up what might that look like?

How the hell should I know? Are you trying to suggest that an Omni everything deity could not get my attention? I don't know whats going on in your life, but I just ain't that busy!

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Wow, you have not been reading the Bible I was reading. All through the pages of my Bible are platitudes about how God so desperately wants to be with us. How much he wants us to *accpet* the great love he has for us etc. etc. No, i think he would be very much upset for Himself because he would be denied the chance to fellowship with His most precious c ...[text shortened]... im. No, Sir, if He existed, He would have answered my call...I surely would have answered His!

Ok , I must have misread you. You have obviously honestly sought harder than I thought you had. Sorry about that.

Despite this , I sense that deep in your heart you really wish you had found him which suggests to me that Holy Spirit put a desire in you to seek for him.

I bet that if you explored what happened (either privately or otherwise) that I would have a great chance of putting my finger on what went wrong.

I would still say that his greatest upset would be for you and not for him. His love is such is that of course it would grieve him but more for what you had lost than what he had lost. Do you understand this concept?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , I must have misread you. You have obviously honestly sought harder than I thought you had. Sorry about that.

Despite this , I sense that deep in your heart you really wish you had found him which suggests to me that Holy Spirit put a desire in you to seek for him.

I bet that if you explored what happened (either privately or otherwise) tha ...[text shortened]... grieve him but more for what you had lost than what he had lost. Do you understand this concept?

Apology accepted, don't sweat it.

{KM Quote}
Despite this , I sense that deep in your heart you really wish you had found him which suggests to me that Holy Spirit put a desire in you to seek for him.
{end quote}

Desire, as I'm sure you know, comes from a whole host of places, and it can be inspired from within or from outside pressures/suggestions. Assuming that my particular desire (and oh, did I ever have desire) came from the invisible spirit of a distant god is an assumption I can no longer make without some evidence.

{KM Quote}
I bet that if you explored what happened (either privately or otherwise) that I would have a great chance of putting my finger on what went wrong.
{end quote}

I don't think I have yet convinced you of the degree to which I wanted to experience God. Between the ages of 27 and 31 I was in despair...serious despair...at having just lost my faith. So much despair, in fact, that I did not even admit publicly that I had lost it until just a year ago (age 31), hell, until then I could't even admit it to myself.

Depression, destructive behavior, denial, self loathing, confusion...these are just some of the things I went through in those four years. You don't get it man; my entire worldview changed, forcing me to conclude that my relationship with God was either imaginary all along, or He had given me the boot. Either way, I needed to adapt, and I did.

Establishing a relationship with what I thought was God was the second most significant event in my life, recovering from that same relationship was the first. But recover I did, and you know what? My life is as rewarding, and fulfilling as it has ever been. My bonds have been broken, I'm free, and it is *truly* a blessing!

So, this is why I say that if somehow I end up facing God at the end of my journey, my first words to Him will be: "Where the hell were you?!" Don't get me worng, I'm not angry at God (he doesn't exist), I'm angry at myself for engaging in such blatant self deceipt for so long. However, if I'm all wrong about this (and I freely admit it is a possibility) it will be ME *demanding* an explanation from Him, and then I will be the angriest soul in hell.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Apology accepted, don't sweat it.

{KM Quote}
Despite this , I sense that deep in your heart you really wish you had found him which suggests to me that Holy Spirit put a desire in you to seek for him.
{end quote}

Desire, as I'm sure you know, comes from a whole host of places, and it can be inspired from within or from outside pressures/suggestion ...[text shortened]... *demanding* an explanation from Him, and then I will be the angriest soul in hell.

This going to be hard for you to hear but he WAS there you probably just missed him.

I am no stranger to despair and depression myself (boy if only you knew) . One thing I do know is that much of it was tied up with a completely false idea of who God is and what he thought about me. I believe that you were indeed deceiving yourself , but I think it was deceipt involving who God is rather than whather he exists.

I'm going to take a leap of faith here and ask you whether you had a poor relationship with your father by any chance?

Originally posted by knightmeister
This going to be hard for you to hear but he WAS there you probably just missed him.

I am no stranger to despair and depression myself (boy if only you knew) . One thing I do know is that much of it was tied up with a completely false idea of who God is and what he thought about me. I believe that you were indeed deceiving yourself , but I think it ...[text shortened]... p of faith here and ask you whether you had a poor relationship with your father by any chance?

LOL

Originally posted by knightmeister
This going to be hard for you to hear but he WAS there you probably just missed him.

I am no stranger to despair and depression myself (boy if only you knew) . One thing I do know is that much of it was tied up with a completely false idea of who God is and what he thought about me. I believe that you were indeed deceiving yourself , but I think it ...[text shortened]... p of faith here and ask you whether you had a poor relationship with your father by any chance?

Professa Skippy needs to read "Footprints in the Sand."

Originally posted by knightmeister
This going to be hard for you to hear but he WAS there you probably just missed him.

I am no stranger to despair and depression myself (boy if only you knew) . One thing I do know is that much of it was tied up with a completely false idea of who God is and what he thought about me. I believe that you were indeed deceiving yourself , but I think it ...[text shortened]... p of faith here and ask you whether you had a poor relationship with your father by any chance?

Haha!

Friend, there is no point in our having this conversation together. Everything you believe about life makes it impossible for you to accept that I honestly sought God and did not find him. Everything I have learned in my life tells me that I did, in fact, honetly seek him. We are at an impasse.

I had, and still have, a fantastic relationship with my father.

Originally posted by knightmeister
This going to be hard for you to hear but he WAS there you probably just missed him.

I am no stranger to despair and depression myself (boy if only you knew) . One thing I do know is that much of it was tied up with a completely false idea of who God is and what he thought about me. I believe that you were indeed deceiving yourself , but I think it ...[text shortened]... p of faith here and ask you whether you had a poor relationship with your father by any chance?

KM: I'm going to take a leap of faith here and ask you whether you had a poor relationship with your father by any chance?


I'm going to take a leap of faith here and ask you if your mother dressed you up in little girl's clothes, put lipstick and makeup on you and had you recite the "Rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain" by any chance?