11 Jul 11
Originally posted by Conrau KIs that right? Do you think God can think?
I don't see how omni[/i]potence[/i] conflicts with God's ability to think. I don't even see how omniscience conflicts with God's ability to think (surely if God can know something, that presupposes he can think.)
Is there an intelligent conversation going on in this thread somewhere that I missed?
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by josephwinteresting argument.
Shut up stupid.(hyperbole) What are you, 14 years old?
I never called anyone stupid in this forum before, but your post is positively ignorant. You are obviously a teenager because you think you know it all.
Either that or you just did some kind of drug and actually think you said something profound.
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by Conrau KArent 'thinking' and 'knowing' subtley different?
I don't see how omni[/i]potence[/i] conflicts with God's ability to think. I don't even see how omniscience conflicts with God's ability to think (surely if God can know something, that presupposes he can think.)
Perhaps I'm not being clear. I am trying to find out how a god who knows all (including all future events) can think. (This is not my god and it may not be yours ... a hypothetical entity)
for instance: he thinks about whether or not to part the Red Sea ... does he weigh up the pros and cons? No! because he already knows how its going to pan out, he already knows his own decision, there is no thinking involved.
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
11 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by wolfgang59Arent 'thinking' and 'knowing' subtley different?
Arent 'thinking' and 'knowing' subtley different?
Perhaps I'm not being clear. I am trying to find out how a god who knows all (including all future events) can think. (This is not my god and it may not be yours ... a hypothetical entity)
for instance: he thinks about whether or not to part the Red Sea ... does he weigh up the pros and cons? No! bec ...[text shortened]... how its going to pan out, he already knows his own decision, there is no thinking involved.
Of course, but surely knowing something presupposes thought. Knowledge is really just a kind of thought. We do not ascribe knowledge to non-cognitive beings. Of course, it is possible that someone can think without knowing. Knowledge and thought are notionally different. The point is that the former presupposes the latter.
for instance: he thinks about whether or not to part the Red Sea ... does he weigh up the pros and cons? No! because he already knows how its going to pan out, he already knows his own decision, there is no thinking involved.
Well, I think the word you are looking for is volition. If God knows what he will do in the future, how can he have a will in the present -- he must defer to whatever future he knows is already mapped out. The question is, how is volition possible when future action is already known?
I don't think that there is strictly any contradiction. God's knowledge of his future action is contingent on his choice -- he only knows that he will do A in the future because he has decided this. It's not as if God thinks "I know I will do A, so I must do A -- I really don't want to do A, in fact, my future knowledge is coercing me against my will'. I remember an issue like this being discussed in another thread by LemonJello and Bbar. I will try to find it because they really explained the fallacy well.
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by Conrau KThis isn't really about God's free will. Diverting the discussion into that vein would be a mistake for whoever does it. It is about whether God thinks. Let us stick to that.
[b]Arent 'thinking' and 'knowing' subtley different?
Of course, but surely knowing something presupposes thought. Knowledge is really just a kind of thought. We do not ascribe knowledge to non-cognitive beings. Of course, it is possible that someone can think without knowing. Knowledge and thought are notionally different. The point is that the forme ...[text shortened]... nJello and Bbar. I will try to find it because they really explained the fallacy well.[/b]
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by JS357Wolfgang certainly wants to make it about thinking, but it is clear from context that he really means free will. Otherwise, I have no idea how God's knowledge about the future could possibly conflict with his ability to think. One seems to entail the other.
This isn't really about God's free will. Diverting the discussion into that vein would be a mistake for whoever does it. It is about whether God thinks. Let us stick to that.
11 Jul 11
I'm aware of the free will paradox for each and every one of us and can see that being applied to god. Just trying to go one level deeper here and see how an individual can reconcile his omnipotent god with a personality that he can prayer to / communicate with.
A previous poster suggested such a god is "out of time" and I'd be interested in a take on that.
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by Conrau KSo you are comparing a being that can plan consequences and one that cannot, to try and prove something about a being that knows all consequences prior to planning.
Knowledge of future actions is generally a mark of free will rather than a contradiction of it. In court premeditated murder is considered a sign that the killer did not suffer any derangement. He acted out of his own agency, fully aware of the consequences of his actions and therefore fully intending them. If however the killer could not know the co ...[text shortened]... ompletely unaware of how he would act in the future, he did not have free will: he was deranged.
I think you are missing that very important point that God is different from both thinking murderers and deranged murderers in that before God thinks or plans he already knows the consequences. The OP suggests therefore that he cannot think and plan.
Most importantly, time does not exist for God, he sees the whole universe as a static object including all time.
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by rwingettWhat about Jainism? That is a pretty significant religion in India, founded also on non-violence.
Ah, your point is an interesting one, but what are the only completely non-violent communities on the face of the earth? They are the Amish and Hutterite communities. There has been only one recorded homicide in their entire history. And it seems to be their belief in god which binds them to such a path.
But a small minority of non-violent religions does not mean the violent ones have some kind of supernatural approval or mandate for violence, it just means people started these violent religions for one purpose: Controlling men and coincidentally subjugating women, by accident of course.
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by Conrau KWell, that's too bad, but you have a point. It's an interesting question, whether God thinks.
Wolfgang certainly wants to make it about thinking, but it is clear from context that he really means free will. Otherwise, I have no idea how God's knowledge about the future could possibly conflict with his ability to think. One seems to entail the other.
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by wolfgang59It seems to me that you are the one with the problem of lack of thinking,
given that god supposedly knew the future of every particle in the universe at the moment of creation and given that god is part of the universe, does that imply that he knew his own actions in advance? and that therefore he cannot change them? in other words he is as helpless as any one of us? this would include god's inability to think (although he may ...[text shortened]... [/i] of thinking)
what value are worship and prayer when the god is powerless to think/act?
at least rationally.
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by sonhouseKnow this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their
Your omniscient god doesn't just know the future, it planned it out ahead of time, supposedly giving humans some false sense of free will. This so-called free will is just keeping us corralled in some limited number of corridors so we don't get out of hand. Assuming there is this omniscient god in the first place, you cannot prove it is there and I cannot p ...[text shortened]... ndamental affability of humankind in all that time. We kill with much greater efficiency now.
mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise
of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as
it was from the beginning of creation." (2 Peter 3:3-4 NASB)
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by Conrau KBut once God has decided, he is constrained by his decision. He cannot rethink it and re-decide or his prior 'knowledge' of the future was imperfect. For his knowledge of the future to be perfect, be must know his own future decisions and future thinking.
I don't think that there is strictly any contradiction. God's knowledge of his future action is contingent on his choice -- he only knows that he will do A in the future because he has decided this. It's not as if God thinks "I know I will do A, so I must do A -- I really don't want to do A, in fact, my future knowledge is coercing me against my will'. I re ...[text shortened]... LemonJello and Bbar. I will try to find it because they really explained the fallacy well.
He cannot simultaneously perfectly know the future and have volition in the future. Also either there was a time in the past, prior to thinking and deciding when he did not know the future, or there was never a time that he actually made those decisions.
11 Jul 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe Holy Bible says that God is the only one that can tell the end from the
But once God has decided, he is constrained by his decision. He cannot rethink it and re-decide or his prior 'knowledge' of the future was imperfect. For his knowledge of the future to be perfect, be must know his own future decisions and future thinking.
He cannot simultaneously perfectly know the future and have volition in the future. Also either ther ...[text shortened]... n he did not know the future, or there was never a time that he actually made those decisions.
beginning. And He has revealed many things to the prophets to prove it.
However, I don't know if this means God knows every little detail of all
there is to know. Maybe we need jaywill to quote some verses from the
Holy Bible on this subject. Between the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit, God may know all there is to know past, present, and future. But
I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know what the Holy Bible has to
say on this. Perhaps I was "daydreaming" if I read anything on it. The
Holy Spirit hasn't saw fit to enlighten me on this subject as yet. Maybe,
I am not ready for it and to me it seems like none of you are either.
11 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by wolfgang59Supposedly knew? He did and does know. God is part of the universe? God is a living Divine Being. He is not a sentient part of the universe. Imply that He knew His own actions in advance? I believe that the Bible states that He did and does know. He cannot change them? God can do anything that is not impossible, does not violate His Holiness nor man's freewill up to the point of His explicit directive will. Is as helpless as any one of us? Almighty Jehovah God helpless? God is only helpless where faithlessness and sin limits Him. God's inability to think? A fox can think. A dog can think. What makes you think Jehovah God cannot or does not think? What value are worship and prayer when God is powerless to think? To you I would say that a sinner's prayer offer by faith is the only prayer that God is abligated to hear.
given that god supposedly knew the future of every particle in the universe at the moment of creation and given that god is part of the universe, does that imply that he knew his own actions in advance? and that therefore he cannot change them? in other words he is as helpless as any one of us? this would include god's inability to think (although he may ...[text shortened]... [/i] of thinking)
what value are worship and prayer when the god is powerless to think/act?