25 Apr 06
1 edit
Halitose: an aside.
Check out this bit of Sufi poetry that I just read. The Sufis were confused by the problem of evil, too.
"The moon shines in the darkness,
bringing joy to all.
A dog howls in response,
according to its nature.
We can't blame the moon
just because the dog disturbs us."
--Rumi
25 Apr 06
Originally posted by HalitoseYes, you are missing something. First, having a predisposition for developing this or that sort of character entails nothing about any particular decision on the part of an agent. Second, it is necessary to have some predisposition or other to develop any sort of character at all (this is another way of pointing out that the development of our character requires not only external influence but internal psychological capacities upon which those external influences can work). Third, you are influenced all the time (by reasons, arguments, the requests of others, and so on), yet when you act in response to these influences you still take yourself to act freely. So, don't feed me any B.S. about moral freedom being incompatible with being influenced, because not even you believe that.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how would influencing a decision not influence it?
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Really? How do you know? While we do not live in an age of miracles, Jesus Christ still controls history, and will not allow man to destroy himself. God keeps the ball in play, so to speak.
Wait a second. I thought we had free will and we controlled history.
If Jesus controls history, then He controlled the Holocaust's occurring.
In fact, this control that you are suggesting seems to fly in the face of
your own argument. Indeed, if Jesus were a benevolent character who
was controlling history, then why did the Holocaust occur? You've been
arguing that the Holocaust occurred because of the perverse action of
human free will, but now you are suggesting that Jesus is behind the
scenes somehow.
From a very, very limited perspective, I suppose you could demonstrate any number of scenarios are "better."
So, you are saying that from a broader perspective, the Holocaust
was a good thing? Because all my perspective says is that it was a
horrible atrocity and to have minimized the suffering that it caused
would have been a better thing (and, that God had the capacity to do
so and didn't).
If you are saying that a broader perspective is all that is required in
order to appreciate that the Holocaust was a necessary part of the
greater good of human kind, then we can very much conclude that
your 'god' is a monster.
Hitler is not part of the argument. This is merely a point of fact.
No. It is a point of outlandish conjecture. It is to my discredit that I
am even entertaining.
In varying degrees, yes. Does the influence of PCP entail the loss of free will?
Are you saying that Hitler took a demon of his own free will (like
Doctor Faustus)?
Nemesio
26 Apr 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThat God 'preordains' is an entailment of your claim that every occurrence is planned/caused by God. When an omnipotent being plans and executes, preordination is the result.
[b]Somehow, you want to cling to a liberatarian notion of free will even though your God has perfect knowledge and has preordained human history. That doesn't work.
Not sure what you mean by preordained, but I don't like the sound of it. Care to define it?
If God knows perfectly the decree, then it is determined. Determination and libertarian otherwise Time For Chess would have lost out on some of the best converstations ever.[/b]
However, many of your statements are contradictory to the premise that God is omnipotent. If your God is somehow constrained by us merely in virtue of our status as moral agents; or if His abilities within the realm of logical possibility are merely contingent and 'at the mercy of'; then He isn't omnipotent. Your God is either omnipotent or not. Which do you claim?
not all sees or understands how even the ultimate sin of arrogance against the character of righteousness of God could bring Him glory... yet some now do see.
This is a good example of why many charge you with ownership of secret decoder rings. That your 'vision' and 'understanding' are so keen is merely a testament to your will to believe. (in just about anything)
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by NemesioI thought we had free will and we controlled history.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Really? How do you know? While we do not live in an age of miracles, Jesus Christ still controls history, and will not allow man to destroy himself. God keeps the ball in play, so to speak.
Wait a second. I thought we had free will and we controlled history.
If Jesus controls history, then He controlled t ...[text shortened]... saying that Hitler took a demon of his own free will (like
Doctor Faustus)?
Nemesio[/b]
I can think of no one in the history of man who controlled history. There have been millions upon millions who have made history, but none who controlled the same. When I said that Jesus Christ controls history, it is from the standpoint that nothing is beyond His control. No amount of evil or human good that man endeavors to undertake can ever derail the purposes of God. When man gets to the point of inevitable destruction (as was the case during Noah's time, for example), God intervenes. His timing is perfect. While man may see (in his mind) a better scenario for any number of historical situations, only God is able to see and know the entire picture. Man's limited perspective is hardly comforting, regardless of the temporary relief it may suggest to offer.
but now you are suggesting that Jesus is behind the scenes somehow.
You are attempting to project contradiction and absurdity where none exist.
from a broader perspective, the Holocaust was a good thing?
Insofar as God will be ultimately glorified, there does not exist even one rebellion that either man or angel could manufacture that can serve to diminsh the glory of God. [Ironically, you continue to return to the Holocaust as though it is the one blot on all things good to ever occur in the history of creation. This is precisely why I repeatedly called for anyone fostering this argument to qualify what constitutes suffering. In the face of absolute righteousness being confronted with arrogance, do you actually think the Holocaust even holds a candle to the offense suffered by God?]
Because all my perspective says is that it was a horrible atrocity
I agree. What in the hell were the leaders of the other nations thinking?
a broader perspective is all that is required in order to appreciate that the Holocaust was a necessary part of the greater good of human kind
No, a proper scale of values, derived from an understanding (epignosis) of Bible doctrine is what is required to understand the causes and effects of free will. Understanding how the sovereignty of God and the will of man can coexist in human history is not an easy doctrine to assimilate. It is impossible without Bible doctrine, however.
It is a point of outlandish conjecture.
Perhaps to your thinking, what I have asserted is beyond reason. I dare say you are unable to explain the circumstances surrounding his rapid elevation satisfactorily otherwise, however.
Are you saying that Hitler took a demon of his own free will (like
Doctor Faustus)?
Likely, but unknown.
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloWhen an omnipotent being plans and executes, preordination is the result.
That God 'preordains' is an entailment of your claim that every occurrence is planned/caused by God. When an omnipotent being plans and executes, preordination is the result.
However, many of your statements are contradictory to the premise that God is omnipotent. If your God is somehow constrained by us merely in virtue of our status as moral agents ...[text shortened]... g' are so keen is merely a testament to your will to believe. (in just about anything)
If this is your definition of pre-ordained, then you are in error.
If your God is somehow constrained by us merely in virtue of our status as moral agents
Here's another one for you: He is bound by His own characteristics, as well.
Which do you claim?
I believe I have been very clear on the matter, LJ. Using proper definitions of the technical words and keeping them in perspective yields the biblical view of God's characteristics.
That your 'vision' and 'understanding' are so keen is merely a testament to your will to believe.
But of course! I'm just a beguiled idiot with no conception of evil, suffering or any other form of 'bad things.' I live in a hermetically sealed bubble, never touching anything bad, or having anything bad touch me. This serves my belief system well, as real life would challenge it to such a degree that I would eventually be forced to abandon said faith... if I were really honest with myself, right?
I know it is difficult for you to understand the doctrine, and, again, I said as such even prior to posting it. But there is no contradiction in it (at least, none that you or the few other naysayers have posted), when viewed objectively and as intended. I say "as intended," because the words are definitive and carry a wealth of information which must be understood--- not assumed to mean something they do not mean.
This is not a question of intelligence. It is simple math, really.
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou are getting farther and farther afield. You want to maintain the irrevocable glory of God, but
[b]I thought we had free will and we controlled history.
I can think of no one in the history of man who controlled history. There have been millions upon millions who have made history, but none who controlled the same. When I said that Jesus Christ controls history, it is from the standpoint that nothing is beyond His control. No amount of evil o ...[text shortened]... at Hitler took a demon of his own free will (like
Doctor Faustus)?[/b]
Likely, but unknown.[/b]
His perpetual offense by His creation (of course, offense decreed by Him). You want to assert the
free will of His creation, but that God controls history. You want to say that the Holocaust is a
tragedy, but that its being decreed was in accord with a supreme yet inexplicable wisdom. And,
the coup de'grace, Hitler's rise to fame was because of a demon (but, even that was decreed).
If you want to have trust in a 'god' that has these events as his best plan, I guess that's your
business. Most people of conscience would reject such a barbarian as being unworthy of worship.
But, hey, you can join all the priests of Baal for all I care.
Nemesio
26 Apr 06
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioYou are getting farther and farther afield.
You are getting farther and farther afield. You want to maintain the irrevocable glory of God, but
His perpetual offense by His creation (of course, offense decreed by Him). You want to assert the
free will of His creation, but that God controls history. You want to say that the Holocaust is a
tragedy, but that its being decreed was in accord with a s rthy of worship.
But, hey, you can join all the priests of Baal for all I care.
Nemesio
Just following your lead, of course. You take off down an ill-defined lane and expect me to follow, then dislike the bottom-line answer to a half-baked consideration. That's your problem, not mine. You just don't know the right questions to ask, it would appear.
You want to maintain the irrevocable glory of God, but His perpetual offense by His creation (of course, offense decreed by Him).
I don't maintain God's glory, He does. The offense of His creation has already been solved, and was solved prior to the offense ever occuring. Namely, He himself resolved the so-called problem of evil by paying the price Himself. Your constant incorrect use of the word 'decree' is only confusing you. Until you use it in the manner it is defined and intended, you will continue arriving at the same dead end.
You want to assert the free will of His creation, but that God controls history.
This should be the easiest thing to get one's mind around. There are some intents on the part of the creature which would result in the termination of God's existence. Should He allow those intentions their natural due course?
but that its being decreed was in accord with a supreme yet inexplicable wisdom.
My apologies; I had forgotten: if any act on the part of God is unfathomable by you, as a rule of thumb, said action is inexplicable, and therefore contradictory. How arrogant can you be to insist God show you His hand, to tell you His thinking in every matter? What business is it of yours His dealing with others, including even your loved ones? How can the creature demand of the Creator?
Most people of conscience would reject such a barbarian as being unworthy of worship.
Outstanding reason. Set up false arguments, refute them as so much rubbish, ignore the actual facts, change the definitions of words, and then, when nothing else is left, accuse the other of being without a conscience. Brilliant!
As was posited, as has been repeated, those who reject Bible doctrine are not able to understand doctrine... yet not for lack of the secret decoder ring, but for possession of arrogance.
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou lose credibility when you accuse someone of setting up false arguments after introducing that
[b]You are getting farther and farther afield.
Just following your lead, of course. You take off down an ill-defined lane and expect me to follow, then dislike the bottom-line answer to a half-baked consideration. That's your problem, not mine. You just don't know the right questions to ask, it would appear.
You want to maintain the irrevocab ...[text shortened]... octrine... yet not for lack of the secret decoder ring, but for possession of arrogance.
the only reason Hitler was successful was because of a demon.
Enjoy your relationship with Baal. I give up.
Nemesio
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by NemesioSpeaking of setting up false arguments... at what point did I introduce that "the only reason" behind Hitler's "success" (?) was because of his demon possession? Given his station in life, his rise in popularity was inexplicable; however, the success of his politics is quite readily understood, given the tenor of societal conditions at the time.
You lose credibility when you accuse someone of setting up false arguments after introducing that
the only reason Hitler was successful was because of a demon.
Enjoy your relationship with Baal. I give up.
Nemesio
But, as typical of your arguments, instead of considering the salient points of whatever is being discussed, you divert the conversation down irrelevant paths and then accuse the other of being "far afield." Good for you.
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHHardly overnight, Freaky. The Nazis were dismissed as clowns when they started off. It took years of campaigning and dirty tricks before Hitler managed to have himself appointed as chancellor. Since he was after all the chief Nazi, it follows that he had leadership skills.
No-account, non-citizen, failed artist, eager follower, questionable origins, average (at best) soldier, no demonstrable leadership skills, plus he had smelly feet. Overnight, -presto/changeo- world conquerer.
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by Bosse de NageLeading eaily duped people, I suppose. But in earlier assessments of his abilities, he was viewed far less attractively. By overnight, I obviously did not mean in the span of 24< hours, rather, his entire youth and early adulthood gave every indication of a life to be led in obscurity, possibly even ending in suicide. No leadership skills of any kind were exhibited. It wasn't as though he was seen as a natural leader with personal magnetism, only misguided in varying degrees.
Hardly overnight, Freaky. The Nazis were dismissed as clowns when they started off. It took years of campaigning and dirty tricks before Hitler managed to have himself appointed as chancellor. Since he was after all the chief Nazi, it follows that he had leadership skills.
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp
Yet, somehow, he morphed into an electrifying charismatic scene stealer, perfect for his times.
26 Apr 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt is also logically possible for God to have created humans to be impervious to pain, suffering or physical strain. He could have created us capable of photosynthesising, walking on air, transparent, etc, etc, ad nausium. So what? I find such a discussion very limited as we don't have the capability to fully understand what the ramifications of such alterations to our environment (or us) would entail.
Good. Then such a state of affairs is logically possible, and your God is omnipotent. It follows that your God could have brought about such a state of affairs. So please excuse me in the future when I completely ignore you if ever you make the false claim that free will somehow necessitates evil.
So we see that an appeal to free will completely fai ...[text shortened]... le that pesky question of why your God willfully inflicts a wide range of heinous natural evils.
Maybe another illustration: It is logically possible that you could have won the lottery. Since you have not won it, this must be God's fault.
I've made my claims quite clear in the past:
1. God created physical creatures with a moral free will (as free as possible), where they are not forced, prodded, or otherwise persuaded by character or some other inbuilt security feature to choose for what is good.
2. Humans are given a moral directive (moral law), they are however free to violate it.
3. A moral choice is therefore meaningful since it was self-induced.