Do animals have souls ?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
How does your spirit differ from your soul?

You assert the soul makes us who we are: do neither the spirit nor the body have any part in this?

If my personality changes due to a brain injury, does the changed part go to heaven, or the original part?

Pawnokeyhole, I am ignorant for the most part about most things. I type slowly with two fingers, can't spell, and most of all I agonize over putting my thoughts in writing. I have opinions, where I can be wrong, I have my beliefs, and I can still be wrong, and I have convictions that I hold to be Truth without wavering. I hold to a Biblical world view although I can admit that the Bible may not address every subject. I hesitate to write in this forum because after reading others posts I see that you are intelligent and articulate. So,knowing that I would easily be trumped by most in any debate I simply state what I believe to be true and try to keep it simple. Let me make this even more complicated and controversial. We have been tought that we think with our brains, and to a degree and in part I believe it is true. But I would submit to you that it is with our spirit that we think. Our thoughts are spiritual. We have been tought that we think with our brains which are finite, so therefore our thoughts are finite. But, if in fact we think with our spirit, and it being eternal and infinite, our thoughts are not constrained by the number of our brain cells.
The God of the Bible has revealed himself as a triune being. And we being created in his image and likeness are made up of body, soul, and spirit. How all that plays out as to what part has what function can be discussed forever. I gave a simple definition in a previous post.
I'm open for more discussion about it though, that is if you don't think I'm out of my mind.

Originally posted by celticcountry
[b]Are they part of the scheme of things?[/b

in the bible Gen. 1 verse 20,21,24,25: "God went on to say:'let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls...' And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.... And God went on to say: 'Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds...' And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind." ( in hebrew the word here is ne'phesh. Ro reads "soul" Some translations use the rendering "creature" in Lev. 24:17,18: "in case a man strikes any soul (hebrew, nephesh)of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail. and the fatal striker of the soul (hebrew, nephesh) of a domestic animal should make compensation for it, soul for soul." (notice that the same hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.) so according to the bible the answer is yes animals are souls the big confusion is that people don't no what a soul is the popular belief is the soul is separate from the human body. actually the soul is the animated body you are a soul in Gen. 2:7 the latter part of the verse states "and the man came to be a living soul." it does not say that the man was given a soul! i hope this clears the issue if it rises more Q. ask and i will give bible based answers correction complete bible based answers.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The question of whether animals are rational is still a matter of debate (no one seriously disputes that some animals are intelligent [1]) but, regardless of that, the philosophical argument that rational souls are immortal could be flawed or challenged. This still wouldn't make a difference to the theological argument for the immortality of human souls (which is by virtue of our being made in the image and likeness of God).

Please explain what you mean by rational.

You claim "no one seriously disputes that some animals are intelligent" and yet my religious education text book in school made the claim that animals are incapable of thought and act only on instinct.

You claim "whether animals are rational is still a matter of debate" yet I have never actually seen anyone actually debate that animals are not rational but rather some people will state the claim without evidence. That is not "a matter of debate" but a "matter of belief".

Originally posted by LemonJello
Posted by LH:

"(electrons cannot have souls) because they're not alive."
"If they are alive, yes (viruses have souls)."

LH, is this really your view? That life is both necessary and sufficient for soul possession?

Yes.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Please explain what you mean by rational.

You claim "no one seriously disputes that some animals are intelligent" and yet my religious education text book in school made the claim that animals are incapable of thought and act only on instinct.

You claim "whether animals are rational is still a matter of debate" yet I have never actually seen anyone ...[text shortened]... e the claim without evidence. That is not "a matter of debate" but a "matter of belief".

The answers to both your questions are in the link I provided.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The answers to both your questions are in the link I provided.

I read the begging of the document you linked to and found it very hard to figure out. It starts by implying that rationality is defined as the difference between human intelligence and animal intelligence. It then goes into further sub definitions of rationality while assuming throughout that the exact meaning of the word is understood but clearly implying that the definition is a different one from that stated above. At no point could I find a really precise definition of the word.
Without a clear definition or in the case of the article multiple definitions it would be impossible to discuss whether or not some animals are rational.

Originally posted by josephw
Pawnokeyhole, I am ignorant for the most part about most things. I type slowly with two fingers, can't spell, and most of all I agonize over putting my thoughts in writing. I have opinions, where I can be wrong, I have my beliefs, and I can still be wrong, and I have convictions that I hold to be Truth without wavering. I hold to a Biblical world view althou ...[text shortened]... I'm open for more discussion about it though, that is if you don't think I'm out of my mind.

"But, if in fact we think with our spirit, and it being eternal and infinite, our thoughts are not constrained by the number of our brain cells."

But suppose I started gradually reducing the number of cells in your brain. Don't you think it would affect your thoughts? If so, doesn't that imply that your thoughts depend intimately upon your brain, at least currently?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The answers to both your questions are in the link I provided.

i'm sorry but the real problem is people believe that the soul is separate from the body but actually the soul IS the animated body if you look at Genesis chapter 2 verse 11 the latter part of that verse states that "the man came to be a living soul" (not that the man came to have a soul) and one more thing the soul itself can die in Ezekiel 18:4 the latter "the soul that is sinning -it itself will die" Matthew 10:28 "do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" in these verses it is clear that the soul is not immortal but can perish

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
"But, if in fact we think with our spirit, and it being eternal and infinite, our thoughts are not constrained by the number of our brain cells."

But suppose I started gradually reducing the number of cells in your brain. Don't you think it would affect your thoughts? If so, doesn't that imply that your thoughts depend intimately upon your brain, at least currently?

Yes, I think so. The body, soul, and spirit are one, at least at present, or untill the body dies. Damage to one part has its effect on the whole. It all can get very complicated I suppose.

Originally posted by celticcountry
Are they part of the scheme of things?

no. just human being..

Originally posted by domlo45
....in these verses it is clear that the soul is not immortal but can perish

Actually it is far from 'clear'.
The words 'life' and 'death' are used in many different contexts and with very significantly varied meanings throughout the Bible. For example what would life after death mean?
You quote a single verse without its context and without checking the exact meaning and context in the original Hebrew (or whatever language it originates in) and then you draw a very far reaching conclusion and claim that it is clear.

Originally posted by domlo45
i'm sorry but the real problem is people believe that the soul is separate from the body but actually the soul IS the animated body if you look at Genesis chapter 2 verse 11 the latter part of that verse states that "the man came to be a living soul" (not that the man came to have a soul) and one more thing the soul itself can die in Ezekiel 18:4 the latter body in Gehenna" in these verses it is clear that the soul is not immortal but can perish

Gen 2:11?

"The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;"

I think you mean Gen 2:7

"then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." (RSV)

"from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." (NIV)

"Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (NASB)

"Soul" is used in the KJV, but that's possibly in the older usage of "person" (as in "poor soul" ).

Hebrew nephesh meaning:

1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b. living being
c. living being (with life in the blood)
d. the man himself, self, person or individual
e. seat of the appetites
f. seat of emotions and passions

Usage in KJV:

Total: 753
soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, miscellaneous 47

Originally posted by josephw
Yes, I think so. The body, soul, and spirit are one, at least at present, or untill the body dies. Damage to one part has its effect on the whole. It all can get very complicated I suppose.

So, you can damage the spirit by damaging the body. Can you then kill the spirit by killing the body?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
So, you can damage the spirit by damaging the body. Can you then kill the spirit by killing the body?

It seems to me that any physical malady one suffers from would have some effect on both the soul and spirit to a corresponding degree. But, the soul and spirit are eternal. That's what I believe.

Originally posted by josephw
It seems to me that any physical malady one suffers from would have some effect on both the soul and spirit to a corresponding degree. But, the soul and spirit are eternal. That's what I believe.

Surely this means that as all bodies are effectively damaged extensively at the point of death then all spirits are correspondingly damaged before life after death?