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Originally posted by @rajk999<<To sonship: I agree the discussion got off track, but I’d like to respond to a point made by rajk because I think it is a significant misinterpretation that leads to a near blasphemous, if not blasphemous, conclusion.>>
Of course .. Paul is saying
- EVEN IF GODS SPIRIT IS IN YOU
- YOU CAN LIVE IN THE FLESH
And you will die.
To rajk: I think your conclusion in the quoted post is based on your misinterpretation of Romans 8:13 for the reasons I already stated (and which you didn’t address, that Paul was speaking instructively and abstractly in that verse, a view that is buttressed by verse 11, which states: “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you” and verse 9, which states, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999No, not at all. The Trinity is what is taught in the Bible.
Do you think you would be in trouble for worshipping idols?
I didn't realize you were this strong of a heretic, Rajk. No wonder you do not go to any Church: you do not believe in any teachings of any established Church.
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonshipRight.
I have noticed that most of the posts have been about individual spirituality. I was hoping to talk about something very important to that but is more about the corporate experience - practical church.
i realize that the church is not a subject many Christians like to discuss. Its problematic, its a hassle. And there are so many kinds of churches, Right ...[text shortened]... That is churches according to localities.
I believe God is doing this recovery work today.
The Orthodox Church is expanding everywhere and I believe with the ever increasing levels of apostasy of mainlne Protestant sections that are becoming worldly and pro-LGBTQ, we are going to only see the number of people returning to Orthodoxy increase.
What, exactly though, is the vision that you have?
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonshipThey could refer to them as individual churches, surely, because they were all vaguely united under the Church fathers.What is funny i that a Red Letterer could theoretically use the "On this Rock I build my Church."
But then he'd be vaguely buying into a Catholic perspective.
The principle of Roman Catholicism is to unite various congregations into a world wide public Church - the Mother or capital so to speak, being in the city of Rome.
This is ...[text shortened]... city - one church. Not one region - one church. Even more not one world - one world wide Church.
There were no national church institutions yet. Christianity was persecuted everywhere.
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Originally posted by @romans1009
<<To sonship: I agree the discussion got off track, but I’d like to respond to a point made by rajk because I think it is a significant misinterpretation that leads to a near blasphemous, if not blasphemous, conclusion.>>
I'm sorry, but I have grown so accustomed to Rajk999 throwing his misunderstandings into threads.
I may consider how if at all I could bring the matter of Romans 8:13 and other Romans 8 truths into my OP.
Carry on.
But I don't think Rajk999 understands very much.
He always sounded to me like Lone Ranger Charles T. Russel-lite perhaps dis-fellowshipped by the Jehovah Witnesses or maybe by The Way International.
He's been one of the strong attackers of virtually every thread I've started.
To rajk: I think your conclusion in the quoted post is based on your misinterpretation of Romans 8:13 for the reasons I already stated (and which you didn’t address, that Paul was speaking instructively and abstractly in that verse, a view that is buttressed by verse 11, which states: “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you” and verse 9, which states, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
RAjk999 makes more out of "you must die" in Romans 8:13 then is there.
"Die" there means to become weak and unresponsive, to lose control, to be captive to something other than God's life.
In 7:9 Paul says how seeking to live a good life of some modicum of self control was damaged and opposed simply by the arrival of the law of God to him.
"And I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." (Rom. 7:9)
I think he means mainly spontaneity was hindered. Self-control was crippled. Any blessedness of living was brought down under the disabling effect of sin. He felt immobilized in terms of living for God.
These characteristics Paul relates as him dying.
I think basically the same is meant in Romans 8:13.
"For if you [mainly Christians in whom is the Spirit of Christ] live according to the flesh you must die ..."
The believer has the Spirit but needs to learn to abide in the Spirit. He even needs to linger in the Spirit and go along step by step in the Spirit. If he continues to live the old way, he will DIE. Ie. experience all the darkness, incapacitating immobilization of the power of sin in his fallen being.
" ... you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live."
Walking by the indwelling Spirit must be learned, practiced, developed so the living spontaneously in the blessedness of having Christ flow out from your new regenerated spirit causes you to really live.
Of course "die" in this way ultimately means to physical expire. And the most spiritual Christian, unless alive when Jesus comes to be raptured, is going to physically die. History shows that. And Jesus also said some of His disciples would die.
Rajk999 probably makes too much out of "you must die" there.
Conversely "give life to your mortal bodies" absolutely there is not restricted to resurrection or the next age. In the normal Christian life the mortal body is influenced by the life giving Spirit that Jesus Christ became in order to come into us (1 Cor. 15:45).
I may relate all this to the OP in the future.Especially in Romans 12 the bodies that we present as living sacrifices are bodies regulated by the life giving Spirit. We are to present such bodies to the corporate body of the practical church.
"I exhort you therefore, brothers, through the compassions of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service." (Rom. 12:1)
I have been convinced that this is the body to which the Spirit has given life in Romans 8:13.
Ie. The overcoming spiritual walk by receiving life from the Holy Spirit is ultimately FOR the church, the corporate and practical expression of the body of Christ.
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16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonship"I don't like to debate with Rajk999 any more."<<To sonship: I agree the discussion got off track, but I’d like to respond to a point made by rajk because I think it is a significant misinterpretation that leads to a near blasphemous, if not blasphemous, conclusion.>>
I'm sorry, but I have grown so accustomed to Rajk999 throwing his misunderstandings into threads.
I may consider ...[text shortened]... irit is ultimately FOR the church, the corporate and practical expression of the body of Christ.
I'm not entirely convinced you like 'debating' with anybody.
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16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeLet's not waste time debating that.
"I don't like to debate with Rajk999 any more."
I'm not entirely convinced you like 'debating' with anybody.
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16 Feb 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @philokalia
They could refer to them as individual churches, surely, because they were all vaguely united under the Church fathers.
There were no national church institutions yet. Christianity was persecuted everywhere.
They could refer to them as individual churches, surely, because they were all vaguely united under the Church fathers.
There were no national church institutions yet. Christianity was persecuted everywhere.
I do appreciate those who know church history well, and perhaps better than myself.
But the departure from what the apostles established set in so pretty quickly. And the way God led them to establish local churches was soon deformed by human opinions trying to "improve" on what God ordained.
The truth is so simple and powerful that it has alluded Christians, For one city the apostles established a city wide local church.
it is possible to return to what God ordained, the practical church whose scope is neither larger than or smaller than the unique locality.
"What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches:
To Ephesus
and to Smyrna
and to Pergamos
and to Thyatira
and to Sardis
and to Philadelphia
and to Laodicea." (Rev. 1:11)
Seven cities = seven churches.
One city matched with one church.
Remember, the church is not a physical building or buildings.
At best the physical facility is just the place of meeting.
The community of the Spirit indwelt believers is the Body of the Lord.
In Ephesus what can we Christians be except the church in Ephesus?
In Smyrna what else can we be except the church in Smyrna?
In Pergamos, we Christians can be nothing else except the church in Pergamos.
Condition does not define us.
Locality does define us as the church in this place.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke>>>>>ZING<<<<<
"I don't like to debate with Rajk999 any more."
I'm not entirely convinced you like 'debating' with anybody.
Originally posted by @philokaliaForget who or what I am. Anytime you resort to discussing the man rather than the issue / doctrine at hand, you are on the verge of losing the debate. Keep your mind focused on the issue.
No, not at all. The Trinity is what is taught in the Bible.
I didn't realize you were this strong of a heretic, Rajk. No wonder you do not go to any Church: you do not believe in any teachings of any established Church.
We are now talking about how the Catholics reworded the 10 commandments, removing the one that speaks clearly about creating and worshiping idols. This they have done so that their many statues and idols to which they bow down will appear to be in keeping with Gods commandments.
Is that true?
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Originally posted by @divegeesterHey Cheerleader, where's your pom poms?
>>>>>[b]ZING<<<<<[/b]
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009I make no conclusions. Paul and all the Apostles made the same crystal clear statement. You cannot twist all of them.
<<To sonship: I agree the discussion got off track, but I’d like to respond to a point made by rajk because I think it is a significant misinterpretation that leads to a near blasphemous, if not blasphemous, conclusion.>>
To rajk: I think your conclusion in the quoted post is based on your misinterpretation of Romans 8:13 for the reasons I already sta ...[text shortened]... he Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
Christians Saints, born again with the Holy Spirit are of two types:
- those who live righteously and who will enter the Kingdom of God
- those who live sinfully and who will be destroyed.
Jesus will judge.
16 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonshipMy only clear memory of Dive debating was from the Eternal Suffering thread where he kept repeating...
Hey Cheerleader, where's your pom poms?
"No, NO, don't bring up other scripture; you have to tell me how eternal suffering works from the John 3:16 passage..."
NOTHING else.
And when asked to elaborate on other scriptures that dealt with hell, he also refused.