02 Jul 08
Originally posted by KellyJayThere is no God does not touch that question, there is sin is the
There is no God does not touch that question, there is sin is the
answer to the question if you just want a high level answer that does
not really address why, but give some simple reason for it.
Kelly
answer to the question …
That wasn’t the question that was implicitly being ask here! The question was not why would a “god” allow “SIN”. The question was why would a “god” allow “SUFFERING” in circumstances where it could not possibly be testing anybodies “faith“. There existing “sin” does explain why a “god” would do such a thing.
I see a consistent pattern here and in other posts you have sent of your weird habit of confusing the meaning of one word with that of another:
The word “sin” does not have the same meaning as the word “suffering”.
02 Jul 08
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonI think you've misunderstood - to describe suffering entirely as a tool used by God to test peoples faith misrepresents the Biblical evidence. It is true that some Christians interpret incidents of suffering in their lives as a test of faith and they have some scriptural warrant for doing so, but this doesn't wholly account for all suffering in the world nor does it account for the origin of suffering.
[b]There is no God does not touch that question, there is sin is the
answer to the question …
That wasn’t the question that was implicitly being ask here! The question was not why would a “god” allow “SIN”. The question was why would a “god” allow “SUFFERING” in circumstances where it could not possibly be testing anybodies “faith“. There ex ...[text shortened]... with that of another:
The word “sin” does not have the same meaning as the word “suffering”.[/b]
I don't think Kellyjay was claiming that sin and suffering are synonyms. Within Christian doctrine sin and suffering are closely related concepts. I think Christians would debate the degree of this relationship, however a literal reading of the account of the fall in Genesis suggests that suffering and death came into existence as a result of human sin.
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by vistaultimateDid God tell you that? People die period, it does not matter at what
God allows children to die to test the faith of thier parents - if they curse God, and reject him, God will rject them.
But if they keep praising God, there faith will be strengthened - and God will reward them for thier faith!
age, 8 or 80 there is a time for each of us to die, is one age any
better or worse than another when all die? 200 years from now the
people who die at 1 are still as dead as those that die at 24, and
that is that. It is part of the process of life as we see it now, to make
a claim that it is wrong judges that life is good and proper, you need
a reason for that, beyond personal tastes, because some people
do not value life and if we are the judges of such things and we do
not agree, why curse God over that?
Kelly
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by KellyJayit takes away the responsibility from weak people. fanatic zealots would invoke the "God's will" because it is so much easier than to find solutions. thus solving problems becomes against god's plan and we get a situation like the catholic church created in the medieval ages when peasants were told it is god's will that they obey their lords and that rich people won't go to heaven so they(the peasants) should be happy they don't own anything.
Did God tell you that? People die period, it does not matter at what
age, 8 or 80 there is a time for each of us to die, is one age any
better or worse than another when all die? 200 years from now the
people who die at 1 are still as dead as those that die at 24, and
that is that. It is part of the process of life as we see it now, to make
a claim tha ...[text shortened]... fe and if we are the judges of such things and we do
not agree, why curse God over that?
Kelly
god gave us reason and the ability to change the environment. god is not to blame what happens with the world just as microsoft isn't responsible for us deleting system files(not the most good of examples but it is fairly close 😀)
03 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by vistaultimateI don't believe that, children die, and as parents if it happens to us
God allows children to die to test the faith of thier parents - if they curse God, and reject him, God will rject them.
But if they keep praising God, there faith will be strengthened - and God will reward them for thier faith!
we are tested, but that is the way it is in all of life good and bad, in
pleasure and suffering we go through also tests us. It isn't like a
drivers test, you must pass so we will see if you can handle your
children dying. The life we live here has temptations in it, those I
believe are tests, there are pain and suffering just from being alive,
there are joys and pleasure too, and those joys and pleasures are as
great a 'test' as anything in this life too. Will you for the joy of a
moment break the vows you made to your wife or husband if another
person wants to sleep with you, what would it take to break your word
to someone?
Kelly
03 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Badwater===========================================
I could not disagree more stridently against this notion of suffering and you'd never find me preaching it, either.
I could not disagree more stridently against this notion of suffering and you'd never find me preaching it, either.
==========================================
I think the way I put it you may misunderstand me. And I take responsibility for that.
I do not mean the notion of suffering as an excercise in asceticism.
The book of Colossians teaches that God is not after our asceticism or suffering for suffering's sake.
The Bible does show that God is interested in the Adamic fallen nature being terminated. And the new life in Christ being germinated. This is what baptism means. You bury the old and the new is raised up.
This is not really a matter of suffering so much as it is a matter of dying. Don't suffer, rather dye to the old life that you may be raised in newness of life.
The cross is not to make you suffer. The cross is to terminate you that you may be raised to walk in newness of life in Christ.
Whether that is a suffering to us or whether we pass through it willingly with the joy and enjoyment of Christ is mostly up to us. Termination of the old man does not have to be a suffering. It often is a suffering because we love ourselves too much and are not willing to let the cross terminate us and the resurrection life fill us.
I wonder if you understand what I am writing. The apostles told the new belivers that it is through much tribulation that we enter into the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22).
That does not mean suffering in the sense of asceticism. But it does mean tribulation. The apostles preached this in Acts 14:22 among other places. And I would not hesitate to preach it either.
29 Jul 08
Well I do ask the same question myself and the only way I could possibly 'justify' God is by thinking that the suffering I see could make me a better person depending on how I react.
I can choose how to react either with anger or causing more pain or I can choose to help other children that suffer and also I can appreciate the gift of life. Unfortunately we as humans feel that we are in a way immortal and only when we loose someone we can understand the true values in our life. Could it be that some souls have to be sacrificed for the good of others?, well am not sure.
I also understand that the above view sounds very selfish, you can ask the question: so all those young children die for you to be a better person and if yes why isn't everyone already a better person when so many children die in the world?
The way I see it is this, each painful story is there to teach us something we can try to find out the meaning of it or we can turn our head and close our eyes and ears. Without pain I doubt if we could go deep in our soul.
31 Jul 08
Originally posted by mazda9934im not a theist, but what if god was like a superhero who could not show his true identity? most superheros in comics are breaking the law and are to be arrested if found out; look what happened to jesus christ.
Please bring to mind your image of God.
Then, please tell me why he allows very small children to suffer and die ??
(No one has EVER given me a plausible answer to this question)
31 Jul 08
Originally posted by mazda9934I would think that God knows a little something about having a child suffer and die😉
Please bring to mind your image of God.
Then, please tell me why he allows very small children to suffer and die ??
(No one has EVER given me a plausible answer to this question)
31 Jul 08
to be serious for a moment, God created a natural world where things live and die, its supposed to happen. We, as human beings could prevent most of the suffering and deaths of young children, by simply cooperating with one another and living in peace as God intended. Imagine if all the scientist in thew world curretly working on gadgets that can more easily kill other people, or chemists slaving night and day to discover a new and faster way to an erection, spent all there time and money on saving the lives of children. God isn't to blame.... we are.😞
31 Jul 08
4 edits
Originally posted by duecer…We, as human beings could prevent most of the suffering and deaths of young children, by simply cooperating with one another and living in peace as God intended…
to be serious for a moment, God created a natural world where things live and die, its supposed to happen. We, as human beings could prevent most of the suffering and deaths of young children, by simply cooperating with one another and living in peace as God intended. Imagine if all the scientist in thew world curretly working on gadgets that can more easily ...[text shortened]... pent all there time and money on saving the lives of children. God isn't to blame.... we are.😞
What about the child suffering and deaths we didn’t cause by lack of cooperation etc?
… Imagine if all the scientist in the world currently working on gadgets that can more easily kill other people, or chemists slaving night and day to discover a new and faster way to an erection, spent all there time and money on saving the lives of children.…
I couldn’t agree more. But it is the politicians that make the decision to have those scientists paid to work on gadgets that can more easily kill other people etc and, in addition, at least in a democracy, we choose those politicians to be in office knowing that they will pay scientists to do this, so the scientists certainly shouldn’t get all the blame. I could argue (a bit unfairly I think): “Imagine if all these theists in the world currently reading religious scriptures and struggling to learn as well as interpreting religious scriptures and all those people that build churches for theists etc spent all there time and money on saving the lives of children?”
The problem is this can be said for any profession that doesn’t directly stop human suffering -although that’s not to say we shouldn’t divert money and time from other things to help children.
…God isn't to blame.... we are …
I agree -that’s because there is no god to blame.
31 Jul 08
1 edit
What about the child suffering and deaths we didn’t cause by lack of cooperation etc?
You missed my point; all suffering could be ended by co-operation, not that its caused by a lack of it.
God exists wether you believe or not.
Most religous orginizations do charity work, in fact most charity work is done by theist's
31 Jul 08
Originally posted by duecer…What about the child suffering and deaths we didn’t cause by lack of cooperation etc?
What about the child suffering and deaths we didn’t cause by lack of cooperation etc?
You missed my point; all suffering could be ended by co-operation, not that its caused by a lack of it.
God exists wether you believe or not.
Most religous orginizations do charity work, in fact most charity work is done by theist's
You missed my point; all suffering could be ended by co-operation, not that its caused by a lack of it. …
Don’t get me wrong; I am all for any cooperation that reduces child suffering and deaths. But, can any amount of cooperation prevent all child suffering and all child deaths due to accidents and misfortune (such as being struck my lightning etc)?
… God exists whether you believe or not..…
I claim that: “there is no god whether you believe that or not”
…Most religious organizations do charity work, in fact most charity work is done by theist's…
There was an earlier thread that showed that to be false: in fact, there is reason to believe that most charity work is done by atheists -not theists!
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by mazda9934Most of my questions were answered by John Mackay and I humbly submit www.evidenceweb.net for you to send any serious questions to him and his team. In my late 60's he proved a revelation, answering (satisfactorily) many questions that had bothetred me for years.
Please bring to mind your image of God.
Then, please tell me why he allows very small children to suffer and die ??
(No one has EVER given me a plausible answer to this question)