27 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzoriginally posted by ahosyney:
How long is a God day?
How long is it? There are several location in the Quran where GOD talk about his day. It is mentioned 3 times it is like 1000 years of ours.
Only one time it was said it is 50000 years when Quran was talking about a specific day , surrah 70:4(posted 25th november, in thread OT god)
Contradiction?
27 Dec 06
IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God. An asker asked for torment that must befall, for the unbelievers; there is no repelling it; from God the Lord of the ascents, whereby ascend the angels and the Spirit unto Him in a day whose length is fifty thousand years.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 70 - The Ascents)
This is a day whose length is 50000 years. It does not say it is a God's day or the Day of God. It is just a day. I don't see a problem here.
27 Dec 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzOriginally posted by Varqa
What a surprise.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 70 - The Ascents)
This is a day whose length is 50000 years. It does not say it is a God's day or the Day of God. It is just a day. I don't see a problem here.
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I don't know if you read this, but the verse doesn't say it is GOD day. I hope you can hear it now. When the Quran say the day of GOD, the Quran said it is like 1000 years. And when it talked aboud the day the angles ascents to the sky which is a specific period of time, Quran said 50000 years. If you want to understand that the day angles ascents to the sky is the day of GOD , it is your problem.
I dicussed this issue in a previoud post, and I said, that the day represents a specific period of time. When we talk about earth then it is 24 hours, when we talk about GOD, then it is something else. And it could be used to specifiy a period of time.
I with you can show me the problem.
27 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by VarqaI would like you to explain this further. What I see is the concept of 'love your enemy' introduced in Matthew, which is not Old Testament...
Of coarse this was written well before the time of Christ, therefore, man born sinless, ie not born from the seed of a man, was a foriegn concept at that time.
You must be careful. I see you using the Old Testament frequently, inserting Christian ideas whereyou wish, but then in this case you say it was before the time of Christ.
27 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyYou said it was a God day:
Originally posted by Varqa
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 70 - The Ascents)
This is a day whose length is 50000 years. [b]It does not say it is a God's day or the Day of God. It is just a day. I don't see a problem here.
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I don't know if you read this, but the verse doesn't say it is GOD day. I hope you can hear it n ...[text shortened]... . And it could be used to specifiy a period of time.
I with you can show me the problem.[/b]
"There are several location in the Quran where GOD talk about his day. Only one time it was said it is 50000 years"
Now that it comes out as a contradiction, you change your story. It just goes to show that, if you don't read things literally, you can twist the words around to get them to mean whatever you want them to mean at the time.
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by snowinscotlandWe were discussing the concet of sin and Whodey was arguing for the idea that we are all born with it. Whodey used this verse from the Bible:
I would like you to explain this further. What I see is the concept of 'love your enemy' introduced in Matthew, which is not Old Testament...
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
(King James Bible, Job)
He believed this shows the concept of original sin. I then pointed out that Jesus was also born of a woman, at which point he said the verse in Job was written before the concept of original sin appeared in the Bible. I was simply pointing out that we should stay consistant. The Bible as a whole must stay true to itself. It can not change from time to time. I hope that explais it.
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by VarqaHello once again. It seems somewhat silly to me to argue if we are born with a sin nature or not when we both seem to be in agreement that all men sin, or am I wrong here? Anyhew, Romans 5:19 puts it this way, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) many be made righteous.
We were discussing the concet of sin and Whodey was arguing for the idea that we are all born with it. Whodey used this verse from the Bible:
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
(King James Bible, Job)
He believed this shows the concept of original sin. I then pointed out that Jesus was also born of ...[text shortened]... s a whole must stay true to itself. It can not change from time to time. I hope that explais it.
I suppose you can interpret that how you wish or even throw it out completely because I know of many who disregard Paul's writings altogether.
As far as the love your enemy concept, however, I would like to know if this concept is found anywhere in the Quran. I think it is a seperate issue from the sin nature debate but is one that is very important to me. The love message in the Bible is why I am a Chrsitian. Can you prove that Mohammad had a comparable love message?
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by whiteroseI don't deny I said that, and the most important is what the verse say not me. And when I read them in arabic I don't see the constradiction you talk about, because the verses are talking about two different situations, in only one of them the concept of the Day of GOD is used. The contradiction comes when you talk about the same thing, and say two different things. Can you say that about this point?
You said it was a God day:
"There are several location in the Quran where GOD talk about his day. Only one time it was said it is 50000 years"
Now that it comes out as a contradiction, you change your story. It just goes to show that, if you don't read things literally, you can twist the words around to get them to mean whatever you want them to mean at the time.
28 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyHello once again. It seems somewhat silly to me to argue if we are born with a sin nature or not when we both seem to be in agreement that all men sin, or am I wrong here? Anyhew, Romans 5:19 puts it this way, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) many be made righteous.
Hello once again. It seems somewhat silly to me to argue if we are born with a sin nature or not when we both seem to be in agreement that all men sin, or am I wrong here? Anyhew, Romans 5:19 puts it this way, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) many be made righteous.
I suppose you can int he Bible is why I am a Chrsitian. Can you prove that Mohammad had a comparable love message?
I suppose you can interpret that how you wish or even throw it out completely because I know of many who disregard Paul's writings altogether.
The problem here is not to accept or reject Paul's writings. The problem is that there are different verses in the Bilbe that contradict Paul's writing, and the concept of original sin, and I pointed them out to you before.
So to accept Paul, you have to find an explaination for the other issuse.
The concept of the original sin is not found any where except in Paul writings. Other wise, both OT, and NT talks about people with no sin, and children don't inherite the sin of their parents. That is the problem here.
Doing sin, doesn't imply we born in sin. And the solution of the sin is much simpler. It is forgivness from GOD.
The idea of salvation rais many question, like a very important one for me: What about the people before the time of Jesus? Are they in Hell or Heaven?
As far as the love your enemy concept, however, I would like to know if this concept is found anywhere in the Quran. I think it is a seperate issue from the sin nature debate but is one that is very important to me. The love message in the Bible is why I am a Chrsitian. Can you prove that Mohammad had a comparable love message?
No you are switching to another subject.
Yes I can prove to you that the message of Islam is more than you can Imagin, but what difference it will make.
I will give you one example, and I hope to work it by your mind:
When you talk about "love your enimies", you ignore many other verses in the Bible, look at this:
Here Quran talks about our parents and how to deal with them:
017.023
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
017.024
And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood."
As you can see it is the second important thing after worshiping GOD. And this is not the only verse, and the same thing exists in the teaching of the prophet Muhammed (Hadith), when he was asked about the best thing to do in life.
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Now lets see what Jesus said:
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
I don't know if you follow this.
This is one example, and I can show you more...
I don't like to compare, but you asked about that. And your statement is not accurate because you ignore the remaining parts of the Bible.
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There is a final important point here: Even if Jesus came with a message of love that doen't make him GOD. And that is the most important point here, you must worship the Correct GOD otherwise you lose.
28 Dec 06
Mayhap that God will place love between you and between those of them ye are hostile towards: for God is powerful, and God is forgiving, compassionate.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 60 - The Tried)
I found the above verse in the Quran. It shows that God wants there to be love between the enemies.
The times were very different when Jesus walked the Earth from the time when Muhammad was here. The people They walked among had very dfferent "illnesses." and different illness require different remedies. What worked at the time of Jesus would not work at the time of Mohammad. That is why you see differences in how it was said, but they were both very effective in their prespective times.
As I mentioned earlier, I am a Baha'i and the quote below is from the Baha'i writings which I have pasted for your consideration.
The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 212)
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by whodey[i]003.133
Hello once again. It seems somewhat silly to me to argue if we are born with a sin nature or not when we both seem to be in agreement that all men sin, or am I wrong here? Anyhew, Romans 5:19 puts it this way, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) many be made righteous.
I suppose you can int ...[text shortened]... he Bible is why I am a Chrsitian. Can you prove that Mohammad had a comparable love message?
Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-
003.134
Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-
003.135
And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah?- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.
003.136
For such the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers flowing underneath,- an eternal dwelling: How excellent a recompense for those who work (and strive)! [/b]
28 Dec 06
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28 Dec 06
3 edits
Originally posted by ahosyneyI suppose we can agree to disagree about Paul contradicting scripture. There are a myraid of web sites out there that can bring Pauls teachings in line with the Bible just as there are a myraid of web sites that attempt to bring the Quran and the Bible together as well.
[b]Hello once again. It seems somewhat silly to me to argue if we are born with a sin nature or not when we both seem to be in agreement that all men sin, or am I wrong here? Anyhew, Romans 5:19 puts it this way, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so by the obedience of one (Christ) many be made righteous.
I suppose you ca he most important point here, you must worship the Correct GOD otherwise you lose.
As far as the love message goes, however, you bring up Luke 14:26 I think to use as an example of Chrsit contradicting his love message. However, is this scripture telling us to literally hate their father and mother etc? I don't think so, rather, what Jesus is saying here is that if you love your father and mother or sister or brother more than me (Christ) you are not worthy of me. This coincides with the greatest commandment in the Bible which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and then and only then to love your neighbor as yourself. Notice that the Creator should recieve your love first and foremost before the created recieve it. After all, if it were not for the Createor, you would not have those other people in your life to love. This even includes loving God above your own life which God has given you as well. This is what Christ was saying when he said to hate your life, he did not mean that we should hate ourselves, rather, we should love our God more than our own lives. Christ said that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill the law. I interpret this to mean that the origianal laws, Mosaic laws, were based upon love. For example, "Do not kill, do not bear false witness", etc. are based on the law of love. Would you kill or bear false witness against someone you loved? The Bible says that if we love God above all else and love our neighbor as ourselves we will adhere to the law without even trying. Chirst then went further by saying that you should also love your enemies as well. This may seem to be contradictory to the Mosaic law but I say it is a further fulfillment of the perfect law of love from God and it is why Christ came. "For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever should believe on him should not perish but have everlasting life". I say that love rules above all else and that love is at the very heart of the nature of the Almighty. Love is also what makes us tick, so to speak. Where would you be without love? Would your life be worth living? In fact, I say it is really the only thing we really care about. At the end of your life or at the end of the life of a loved one, what do you think about? Do you not dwell on the relationships good or bad that they had with yourself and others?
As far as the verse in the Quran telling us to love our parents I think that is good. However, we were designed to love because God designed us in his image and he is a God of love. Therefore, we have a tendency to love those who love us. Christ once said that if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not sinners also do the same? However, to love your enemy is an unatural act. We were not designed to operate in a sin environment and therefore when someone does something to harm us we are not wired to love them back. Only through the message of Christ can we use the supernatural message of "love your enemy" to overcome the natural tendency to hate them back. But if God be a God of love he will continue to love despite his creation sinning against him just as Christ asked the Father to forgive those crucifying him.
To sum up, I think this is what is most distrubing to me about the Quran. There is no verse that tells us to love our enemies. Instead we have such verses as "He loves not the disbelievers" (30:45) I think it different if he said something to the effect that he hates the disbeliever. This could then be interpreted that God hates the act of disbelieving or hates the sin rather than merely hating the sinner. Also consider this verse from the Quran, "Fight them utnil persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah (8:39) So when Christ chose to walk in love with those who persecuted him and eventually killed him was he breaking this command by Mohammad? Is it then sinful to turn the other cheek when wronged? When Christ rebuked Peter for drawing his sword when they came for him to take him to the cross was this wrong? Christ lived duing a time when his people were persecuted in the worst way by a pagan Roman Empire yet he never took up or condoned taking up arms against them. Why do you think this is? Also when does persecution end and for whom? It seems persecution has been and always be with us until the day we die. When then do we rest from fighting persecution and is fighting directly against it the answer? It seems to me that we should live by the warning that Christ gave us which is, "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." It is only when we turn the other cheek does it give our enemies pause and question why it is that we are not retalitating in some way. It then gives them the oppurtunity to see that perhaps we are not the enemy that they are fightying, rather, it may make them take pause and realize it is the enemy within that they are fighting and not you. Otherwise it becomes a continuous cycle of violence in which neither side wins until one side erradicates the other completly. Then the side that wins will probably then turn on itself as it seperates or divides and the cycle renews itself.