13 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasBut don't Muslims also rightly claim to be descendants of Abraham?
Consider this passage, where it says that salvation has come to the Gentiles in order to provoke them to jealousy:
"I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gen ...[text shortened]... the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God" (Romans 2:10-11).
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasIf you can be torn away from your Paulian crib notes, you might consider the Parable of the Laborers in Matthew 20 and ponder its relation to any claim that Jews are "preeminent":
Consider this passage, where it says that salvation has come to the Gentiles in order to provoke them to jealousy:
"I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gen ...[text shortened]... the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God" (Romans 2:10-11).
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the laborers for a shilling a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing in the marketplace idle;
4 and to them he said, Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing; and he saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard.
8 And when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the laborers, and pay them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a shilling.
10 And when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received every man a shilling.
11 And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
12 saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
13 But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
14 Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last.
14 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderAs usual you pick one portion of scripture and neglect anything else which obviously alludes to the need for a deeper understanding (i.e., anything mysterious). There is no doubt that all men are equal in the eyes of God, but there is also no doubt that Jesus Christ witnessed to the Jews first:
If you can be torn away from your Paulian crib notes, you might consider the Parable of the Laborers in Matthew 20 and ponder its relation to any claim that Jews are "preeminent":
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed w ...[text shortened]... is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last.
"And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour" (Matthew 15:22-28).
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhat is your take on Jesus' attitude here?
As usual you pick one portion of scripture and neglect anything else which obviously alludes to the need for a deeper understanding (i.e., anything mysterious). There is no doubt that all men are equal in the eyes of God, but there is also no doubt that Jesus Christ witnessed to the Jews first:
"And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and ...[text shortened]... be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour" (Matthew 15:22-28).
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by kirksey957I think Christ's attitude here is consistent with God's attitude in the OT. His focus was on the Jews, yet His grace extended to any Gentile who fell upon His mercy. Rahab, for instance, was a Gentile, yet she earned favor with the Lord for helping the Israelites.
What is your take on Jesus' attitude here?
The prophesied Messiah King was promised to the Jews since the time of Abraham, so it's no surprise that Christ's ministry began in Israel witnessing to the Jews first. He was sent specifically for them.
Christ is also consistent with the God of the OT in that He shows no favoritism. His chosen people reject Him and He turns right around and begins witnessing to the Gentiles. Christ progressively anoints more and more disciples to go into the land of the Gentiles and preach the Gospel to anyone who might listen.
I think His attitude might strike one as harsh and perhaps elitist, but I believe He esteemed this woman more because of her humility than the Pharisees for their hard-heartedness, even though they were Jews.
14 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by kirksey957I can tell you that the first time I ever read that verse I thought to my self, what a mean thing to say. You have a woman coming to you in desperation asking for help and you turn her away like that? However, notice that she persists in her faith. Also notice that this is what Christ was looking for and he responded by granting her wish. It is my opinion that faith is half the battle and persistence is the other half.
What is your take on Jesus' attitude here?
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI experience him as condescending and full of prejudice in this passage. Or at the very least a product of his culture.
I think Christ's attitude here is consistent with God's attitude in the OT. His focus was on the Jews, yet His grace extended to any Gentile who fell upon His mercy. Rahab, for instance, was a Gentile, yet she earned favor with the Lord for helping the Israelites.
The prophesied Messiah King was promised to the Jews since the time of Abraham, so it' ...[text shortened]... e of her humility than the Pharisees for their hard-heartedness, even though they were Jews.
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by whodeyThat is the popular understanding that Jesus was "testing" her faith. Yet to me if this is what he is doing, isn't he , to put it bluntly, just dickering around with her?
I can tell you that the first time I ever read that verse I thought to my self, what a mean thing to say. You have a woman coming to you in desperation asking for help and you turn her away like that? However, notice that she persists in her faith. Also notice that this is what Christ was looking for and he responded by granting her wish. It is my opinion that faith is half the battle and persistence is the other half.
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by kirksey957I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it, however, is exposing what is in our heart. It is not that God does not know what is in our heart, rather, it is that we don't know. Then once it is revealed in such a way as this example we get to see the results. When I say we I mean those who are observing faith being exercised as well as the person exercising such faith. In a way it is a method to show us that what matters is what is in our heart and not the hardships/sufferings that matter the most. At the end of ones life we tend to judge people based on who/what mattered the most to them as being the defining judgement on what kind of person they were and whether or not they lived a worth while life. This is all predicated on the condition of ones heart.
That is the popular understanding that Jesus was "testing" her faith. Yet to me if this is what he is doing, isn't he , to put it bluntly, just dickering around with her?
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by kirksey957The Bible is a not totally complete text that gives all possible explanations you would like to see. There are historical writings that may contain further explanations. Some of these are the Book of Enoch and the Books of Adam and Eve ... and others.
Say some more about what makes me "unequipped." Have you been talking to Ivanhoe?
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Are you serious? The book of Enoch? The Book of Adam and Eve? Please tell me you're not serious.
The Bible is a not totally complete text that gives all possible explanations you would like to see. There are historical writings that may contain further explanations. Some of these are the Book of Enoch and the Books of Adam and Eve ... and others.