Originally posted by vistesdHi Vistesd.
That kind of thing could be a pragmatic reason for choosing a given religion/philosophy, however, not an evidentiary reason. One who sticks with Buddhism because they believe, say, that a range of perspectival beliefs (given the perspectival nature of human consciousness) best expresses the general “truth of the matter” would be putting the same point into an evidentiary category.
I actually know very little about Buddhism. I suspect that if I studied it I would agree with quite a lot of its teachings. Whether I would then call myself Buddhist I don't know. But I suspect it is easier to be borderline Buddhist than borderline Christian and probably also easier to remain Buddhist with good education.
I would hope that most people change, or stick with, religions/philosophies ultimately for evidentiary reasons rather than simply for pragmatic ones.
One would wish that, but the vast majority of people most certainly do not.
With Christianity, it is both a lack of evidence and the existence of conflicting evidence that might lead one to loose ones faith.
What evidence or lack thereof would lead a Buddhist to stop being Buddhist?
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Originally posted by twhiteheadAre you happy? (That's the only evidence the buddha spoke of.) He also pointed out that happiness is not derived from external (or indeed supernatural) factors. You must take responsibility for you own happiness.
With Christianity, it is both a lack of evidence and the existence of conflicting evidence that might lead one to loose ones faith.
What evidence or lack thereof would lead a Buddhist to stop being Buddhist?
In my experience, people are attracted to whatever suits their understanding. I think buddhism has long recognized this and that is why all 'teachings' are looked upon as 'expedient means.' No one can give you real 'truth.' You are certainly free to live in a world of delusion (the buddhist equivalent of sin, ignorance) (and in fact ALL of us DO) but you can never achieve certainty. So for most buddhists that have this understanding you could not disprove buddhsim because it does not rest on any claim about the universe. "The bodhisattva learns to dwell without thought coverings."
Nicksten, if you want to do those things no 'belief' in the world will stop you. Not even the threat of punishment (why are the prisons full? - they are where I live!) If people feel responsible for what they do and are taught to appreciate the consequences of their actions on others (develop empathy) then they are less likely to do those things regardless of what they are told about the universe. In other words, where morality is concerned, there is no substitute for being raised by loving parents. Rules don't make you good person. You become a good person by taking responsibility for your own actions. (Making rules for yourself.)
By the way, you could argue that there ARE billions of nutcases walking around attributing their actions to something 'other' than themselves. Look around at all the "Holy Wars!" I sincerely hope ALL those people will develop empathy for their fellow humans and stop their destructive behavior. "Hatred is not stopped by hatred but only by love."
Originally posted by twhiteheadumm,maybe when you first get into spritiuality bhuddism is safer in the sense that collectively less people will be harmed. In the latter stages any religion seems to be a stumbling block to your ultimate goal. Does that make sense to you?
"Better" in what way? More attractive? Less likely to be 'seen through'? More likely to cause lasting delusions?
The vast majority of believers become members of the first religion they are introduced to - usually that of their parents. I suspect that the choice of leaving a religion and taking on a new one takes more thought but is also affected by what ...[text shortened]... u are exposed to and how strongly your friends/relatives are likely to react to your change.
i am now going to state something relatively controversial, but firstly, the reasons why many have 'left', Christianity are numerous, for example nominal Christianity has of course been scandalized by the affairs of tv evangelists and many cases of solicitation with regard to child abuse, as in the case of the catholic church, therefore many see it as hypocritical. also there are fractions even within those who do and want to believe, for example with the acceptance in some quarters of homosexuality, or abortion, many do not agree.
also there is the acceptance of various other types of movements, atheism for example which has gained credence in many quarters.
there was up until fairly recently an economic bubble, which was getting bigger and bigger, thus many while nominally christian pursued a lifestyle which was essentially materialistic in outlook, thus spirituality was pushed more and more into the background as tangible objects came to define a person, i drive this type of car, therefore i am this type of person, its kind of like batman jumping into the bat mobile, suddenly he changes into batman and then when he gets out, he is Bruce Wayne again, so it is with those who define themselves through materialism, for to them there is no other reality.
also if you have ever tried, it is quite difficult to get any kind of answers from professional clergymen, while it may be different elsewhere, in the U.K. this has been my experience, with the exception of one minster for the church of Scotland i met, an ex barrister, he really did have time for it, but by and large this is not the case, for many of their views are contradictory and shift with secular liberalism, therefore what this has spawned is a search for spiritual values elsewhere and thus the popularity of other forms of worship.
why has Buddhism become so popular? well, life can be fairly stressful for people, and the idea of taking time out for thought and mediation, may be very appealing, for we are bombarded by more information and disinformation every day, this coupled with more forms of media than ever before, mean that we get stressed for our minds must filter out what is important and what is triviality, thus if we are constantly filling it up with media, there may be little time for reflection, and here is where Buddhism may appeal.
also it must be noted that Buddhism does not necessitate belief in an external god, thus those who are atheistic in approach may find this appealing, for they can develop a personal philosophy along side the tenets of Buddhist thought, and perhaps this is its greatest appeal, the convenience and personal nature.
now here is where my controversy comes in, for it seems to this theist, that Buddhism is concerned solely with self, thus we have terms like, self awareness, self consciousness, self fulfillment etc etc etc, its all about self, which if anyone knows anything about it, Christianity in its purest form, was never about, for it has as its basis, self sacrifice for the benefit of others, and only in fairly recent times has there been a profusion of happy clappy, look at this, im saved type of Christianity, which is nothing but practically, a different form of meism masquerading as Christianity.
i realize that these thoughts may be quite controversial but i am not adverse to being corrected, if it is done in a civil manner, naturally.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNow i will not disagree with any of your of your points on the surface but there seem to be many more facets of bhuddism.
i am now going to state something relatively controversial, but firstly, the reasons why many have 'left', Christianity are numerous, for example nominal Christianity has of course been scandalized by the affairs of tv evangelists and many cases of solicitation with regard to child abuse, as in the case of the catholic church, therefore many see it a ...[text shortened]... roversial but i am not adverse to being corrected, if it is done in a civil manner, naturally.
Like that of bhodisattvahood. The aim of the bhodisattva being to put of his or her own enlightenment off in order to help others get to that point. Sounds pretty unselfish to me
Originally posted by karoly aczelyes but it still appears to all intent and purposes, whether the action is delayed or not, to be predominately about self. I do not know if there is a counter argument to this, these are just my own observations and the first time i have broached the subject.
Now i will not disagree with any of your of your points on the surface but there seem to be many more facets of bhuddism.
Like that of bhodisattvahood. The aim of the bhodisattva being to put of his or her own enlightenment off in order to help others get to that point. Sounds pretty unselfish to me
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are absolutely correct that it begins with an analysis of self. "There is nothing that is not mind." But when the buddha realized that everyone was in that same boat (so to speak) that was when he felt empathy for all things (not just human) and dedicated himself to the way of the bodhisattva. You have an obligation (so he said) to follow the buddha, the law, and the community. Different buddhists (even within the same sect) have different interpretations of what that means but they all agree that compassion is the key and you can't have compassion without reference to the 'other.' Do you really care about whether a doctrine is correct or whether the people around you are happy? The buddha would always choose people over ideas.
that Buddhism is concerned solely with self
Originally posted by robbie carrobieok then here goes for another controversial comment.
yes but it still appears to all intent and purposes, whether the action is delayed or not, to be predominately about self. I do not know if there is a counter argument to this, these are just my own observations and the first time i have broached the subject.
Yes i am the center of the universe.
But then again i have a girl on my couch seriously contemplating suicide while i am typing this...
Man is life ever a paradox!🙁
Originally posted by TerrierJackmmm, it is really quite interesting, and no doubt, self analysis is an excellent place to start! I have heard what you are saying also from a friend, an atheist to be precise and i myself have realized the truth of this matter, that a correct and proper evaluation with the mind is the best that we can hope for, whether the mind, as you are aware, is all there is, well that's also a subject of controversy.
You are absolutely correct that it begins with an analysis of self. "There is nothing that is not mind." But when the buddha realized that everyone was in that same boat (so to speak) that was when he felt empathy for all things (not just human) and dedicated himself to the way of the bodhisattva. You have an obligation (so he said) to follow the buddha ...[text shortened]... whether the people around you are happy? The buddha would always choose people over ideas.
please forgive me if i am wrong, but i really am interested in what sincere Buddhists have to say in this regard, for i have in my life only really met two or three, for i have always understood it to be the ultimate goal of meditation, as far a Buddhism is concerned, to 'free', the mind of desire, and thus with no desire there is no pain, does this also apply to other emotions as well?
Originally posted by karoly aczelcan you not cheer her up?
ok then here goes for another controversial comment.
Yes i am the center of the universe.
But then again i have a girl on my couch seriously contemplating suicide while i am typing this...
Man is life ever a paradox!🙁
Originally posted by robbie carrobieshe says" she's been holding off on a daily basis for 20 years and its very f***ing hard . Appreciates cartoons,people,self-help meetings,12 step meetings and everything enlightenment has presented thus far. Life hurts. Thanks robbie"
i dunno, i watch cartoons when i am blue, its helpful for me, but it may not be helpful for others, also it depends on what is eating her up?
Originally posted by karoly aczelIn the few times in my life when suicide has crossed my mind, I have remembered that if life is not so great where I am, I could always leave and start anew somewhere else. I did in fact end up doing exactly that, and as a result have never been happier.
can you offer a short helpful comment?