05 Jan 06
1 edit
From another thread, I stated this synopsis of "Christian" belief:
You don't understand; all people are total scum but Jesus gives this undeserving trash the "gift of grace". We all suck and are dirtbags, but those few who sufficiently grovel before God's greatness will be rewarded and the rest will get what their evil nature has earned.
Halitose claimed this is a "Strawman and a hasty generalization" but after reading many posts from various "Christians" here, I think it's a reasonable summary. The language might be harsh, but is there anything in there you "Christians" disagree with?
05 Jan 06
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't think you get a good representation of "Christian belief" in this forum. So I wouldn't call your summary a synopsis of "Christian belief", but rather of "beliefs of the most outspoken 'Christians' in the RHP Spirituality Forum". I believe they are a minority outside this forum, and they may even be a minority in this forum. They just shout louder.
From another thread, I stated this synopsis of "Christian" belief:
You don't understand; all people are total scum but Jesus gives this undeserving trash the "gift of grace". We all suck and are dirtbags, but those few who sufficiently grovel before God's greatness will be rewarded and the rest will get what their evil nature has earned.
...[text shortened]... uage might be harsh, but is there anything in there you "Christians" disagree with?
05 Jan 06
Originally posted by no1marauderYes, I disagree with your 'summary'.
From another thread, I stated this synopsis of "Christian" belief:
You don't understand; all people are total scum but Jesus gives this undeserving trash the "gift of grace". We all suck and are dirtbags, but those few who sufficiently grovel before God's greatness will be rewarded and the rest will get what their evil nature has earned.
...[text shortened]... uage might be harsh, but is there anything in there you "Christians" disagree with?
05 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderYou don’t understand the first thing about Christianity. People are made in God’s image. This statement alone refutes your entire summary. Reap what you sow is another one. The fact that we are born with a sin nature does not devalue us, it means that the road back to God will be as easy or difficult as we make it.
From another thread, I stated this synopsis of "Christian" belief:
You don't understand; all people are total scum but Jesus gives this undeserving trash the "gift of grace". We all suck and are dirtbags, but those few who sufficiently grovel before God's greatness will be rewarded and the rest will get what their evil nature has earned.
uage might be harsh, but is there anything in there you "Christians" disagree with?
I think this thread is more a summary of how you see Christians, or the world for that matter.
05 Jan 06
Originally posted by no1marauderCould you be more specific as to whom you are referring when you're talking about "Christians" ?
From another thread, I stated this synopsis of "Christian" belief:
You don't understand; all people are total scum but Jesus gives this undeserving trash the "gift of grace". We all suck and are dirtbags, but those few who sufficiently grovel before God's greatness will be rewarded and the rest will get what their evil nature has earned.
...[text shortened]... uage might be harsh, but is there anything in there you "Christians" disagree with?
05 Jan 06
Originally posted by OmnislashWhat part? Which of the statements are incorrect?
Yes, I disagree with your 'summary'.
1) Man is "evil" "depraved" etc etc etc by nature;
2) Man doesn't merit salvation but it is given to him as an act of grace IF;
3) He believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and Lord.
Not surprising that no "Christian" wants to actually address the points.
05 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't know about ivanhoe, but I'm going to change the split of your statements (you'll see why):
What part? Which of the statements are incorrect?
1) Man is "evil" "depraved" etc etc etc by nature;
2) Man doesn't merit salvation but it is given to him as an act of grace IF;
3) He believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and Lord.
Not surprising that no "Christian" wants to actually address the points.
1. Man is "evil" "depraved" etc etc etc by nature.
2. Man doesn't merit salvation but it is given to him as an act of grace.
3. Salvation is given to man as an act of grace if (and only if*) he believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and Lord.
Of these, (1) is an incorrect representation of Christian doctrine with virtually all denominations.
(2) is correct wrt most denominations.
(3) is incorrect wrt the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (and maybe the High Anglicans). It is correct only wrt the sola fide Christians.
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* The "only if" part has been inferred from your use of "if" in capitals.
05 Jan 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerIf man isn't evil by nature, why does he need salvation at all?
I don't know about ivanhoe, but I'm going to change the split of your statements (you'll see why):
1. Man is "evil" "depraved" etc etc etc by nature.
2. Man doesn't merit salvation but it is given to him as an act of grace.
3. Salvation is given to man as an act of grace if (and only if*) he believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and Lord.
O ...[text shortened]... s.
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* The "only if" part has been inferred from your use of "if" in capitals.
05 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerOf these, (1) is an incorrect representation of Christian doctrine with virtually all denominations.
I don't know about ivanhoe, but I'm going to change the split of your statements (you'll see why):
1. Man is "evil" "depraved" etc etc etc by nature.
2. Man doesn't merit salvation but it is given to him as an act of grace.
3. Salvation is given to man as an act of grace if (and only if*) he believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and Lord.
O ...[text shortened]... s.
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* The "only if" part has been inferred from your use of "if" in capitals.
At least since Calvin’s doctrine of “total depravity” (and perhaps in Luther in his “worse” moments—and I seem to recall some pretty strong language in the Augsburg Confession) this representation has deeply and broadly infected Protestantism. Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Anglicanism (except for the very Protestant wing) don’t seem to display it much; Lutherans are a mixed bag.
(2) is correct wrt most denominations.
I agree, but the question remains: Does humanity “merit” by nature eternal condemnation/punishment (I know there are differing views here on what condemnation means)—either, say, to appease God’s wrath (Luther?) or God’s demand for “justice,” or under any other theory?
(3) is incorrect wrt the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (and maybe the High Anglicans). It is correct only wrt the sola fide Christians.
I might also ask if some Protestants have a greater tendency to equate faith and “belief” in such a way as their position seems to be sometimes “think right and be saved.” It has seemed that way to me.
The only other note I want to make here is that, in the States, the distinction between High/Low Anglicans (Episcopalians) is not identical to the more-Protestant/more-Catholic distinction.
05 Jan 06
Originally posted by ivanhoeI guess that's what we're finding out. I would say that of the people on this site at least RBHILL, blindfaith101, KellyJay and others have made statements that encompass all three premises (they may correct me if they believe I have misstated their position). Coletti firmly believes in 1 and 2 but his predestination position precludes 3 (which is mostly an Evangelical, Born Again position as I understand it).
Please, answer my question.
Will you please answer my question now??
05 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerI think you are dead wrong about 1 being rejected by "virtually all denominations" as Vistesd points out. I also think it is embraced by some sections of the RCC as well; I'll see if I can find links.
I don't know about ivanhoe, but I'm going to change the split of your statements (you'll see why):
1. Man is "evil" "depraved" etc etc etc by nature.
2. Man doesn't merit salvation but it is given to him as an act of grace.
3. Salvation is given to man as an act of grace if (and only if*) he believes that Jesus Christ is his Savior and Lord.
O ...[text shortened]... s.
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* The "only if" part has been inferred from your use of "if" in capitals.
Your comments about 2 and 3 seem about right. I don't object to your restatement.