Calling out Josephw.....and others

Originally posted by KellyJay
God gave us life, the goal; the plan was for us to have life eternally
that was changed by us, and it is us, who go out of our way to steal,
kill, rob, and cause pain and discomfort to ourselves. You blame
God, because God allows us to die in this life time when there is
something far worse to be avoided and He is saving us from that?

He is stopping ...[text shortened]... again, but an end to it forever, so in the mean time He
is saving as many as will come.
Kelly

I have NO evidence that god is saving me from anything.

I don't blame god for anything really since I have no reason to believe he exists. When I see evidence he exists, I'll believe in him.

When god tells me his plan, I'll believe he has one.

I don't blame god for human actions. I think according to the christian belief, he would have to be responsible for cancer, polio, etc... those are not man-made inventions yet they kill innocent children. God created all, right? Hence god must have created cancer, polio, aids, etc.... if god is omniscient and created everything, then god murders children.

...but god doesn't kill babies because god doesn't exist.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I have NO evidence that god is saving me from anything.

I don't blame god for anything really since I have no reason to believe he exists. When I see evidence he exists, I'll believe in him.

When god tells me his plan, I'll believe he has one.

I don't blame god for human actions. I think according to the christian belief, he would have to be re ...[text shortened]... g, then god murders children.

...but god doesn't kill babies because god doesn't exist.

Is it evidence or proof you are looking for with respect to God being
real? What do you think you should see if it is just evidence you seek
that you don't see?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have the ability and right to act within the scope of your life not
beyond that like all things.
Kelly

Yes, but according to your beliefs, it was God who created us and thus decided what the scope of our life would be. He gave us the ability to do what we will in some cases, and he didn't give us that ability in other cases. Do you think that if he had given us more abilities to do good and fewer abilities to do bad, we wouldn't have free will anymore?

Originally posted by Nordlys
Yes, but according to your beliefs, it was God who created us and thus decided what the scope of our life would be. He gave us the ability to do what we will in some cases, and he didn't give us that ability in other cases. Do you think that if he had given us more abilities to do good and fewer abilities to do bad, we wouldn't have free will anymore?

I'm not sure what you mean by he gave us the ability in some cases
and not in others. You decrying the fact you cannot fly on your own
things like that?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Is it evidence or proof you are looking for with respect to God being
real? What do you think you should see if it is just evidence you seek
that you don't see?
Kelly

I'd settle for evidence.

It's a good question as to what I'd claim as evidence. Frankly, I'd settle for something that actually solidly corroborates the bible.

For example, if there were actual archaeological evidence of Moses' exodus instead of an obvious lack thereof.

If god were omniscient and omnipotent then he should be able to think of something 😉

I spent a long time trying to believe in god. It just never happened. Almost every christian I have met has said crap like "all you have to do is let him in" or "all you have to do is look for him" - well, I did. He didn't show up.

Originally posted by Nordlys
Yes:

T[b]hen the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

😉[/b]

Classic!

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I'd settle for evidence.

It's a good question as to what I'd claim as evidence. Frankly, I'd settle for something that actually solidly corroborates the bible.

For example, if there were actual archaeological evidence of Moses' exodus instead of an obvious lack thereof.

If god were omniscient and omnipotent then he should be able to think of som let him in" or "all you have to do is look for him" - well, I did. He didn't show up.

I'm sure the fact the people living over there believe that is their
history might be that type of evidence for some. I don't think you will
ever get what you are looking for; the world is setup so we walk by
faith, if you want "solidly corroborates the bible" that sounds more
like proof not evidence; when you see the cities, the people of the
area, and so on there who all claim links to historical figures from
scripture for me that is evidence. There are plenty of things for all to
see in my opinion, it is just that if anyone can come up with another
story to wrap around the those things, it than becomes what story or
foundation you want to align yourself with. The universe if filled with
evidence for creation, evolution; whatever, it is all the same evidence
it is just argued for differently depending on what side of the fence
you want to be on.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sure the fact the people living over there believe that is their
history might be that type of evidence for some. I don't think you will
ever get what you are looking for; the world is setup so we walk by
faith, if you want "solidly corroborates the bible" that sounds more
like proof not evidence; when you see the cities, the people of the
area, an ...[text shortened]... s just argued for differently depending on what side of the fence
you want to be on.
Kelly

Raelians believe that aliens created humans. I'm sure that's evidence for them.

Evidence that solidly corroborates the bible is not proof - it's evidence. It's just solid evidence, not just "this part of the bible says so and I have faith that it's true".

The cities exist. No one is claiming that Jerusalem doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean that the stories that take place in the city happened exactly as written. Chicago exists, but that doesn't make the Blues Brothers a true story.

The problem I have with the "evidence" for creation is that it is all based on that assumption - that there is a god who created it and then go from there. Sure, you can believe what you want, but don't call that solid evidence.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Raelians believe that aliens created humans. I'm sure that's evidence for them.

Evidence that solidly corroborates the bible is not proof - it's evidence. It's just solid evidence, not just "this part of the bible says so and I have faith that it's true".

The cities exist. No one is claiming that Jerusalem doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean that rom there. Sure, you can believe what you want, but don't call that solid evidence.

The problem I have with many of the views on evolution and the fossil
record is that it is based upon the assumption that life started from
non-life, and changed over time from a simple life form into the
diverse complexity we see today! This all goes back to what you think
the starting point was like; it becomes our plum line for truth
everything is formed starting there, and we judge all things by how we
believe it all began.

You can believe matter and energy always existed.

You can believe everything started from nothing.

You can believe God always existed and started everything.

You can believe everything started from nothing and God started and
everything else came after that.

You can believe whatever you want about the beginning, but it colors
all things after that with respect to how you view everything we call
evidence.
Kelly

Originally posted by kirksey957
Shirley Phelps of God Hates Fags seems to think so. They plan on picketing his funeral.

Tell Shirley she is wrong. God does not hate fags. God disapproves of performing homosexual acts, but this does not mean he "hates fags".

God strongly rejects sin, but he loves all of his children, meaning all men and women.

They plan on picketing his funeral ? ....... This Shirley and her followers show again that we need the teaching authority of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church to stay on track of what Jezus teaches us. These ignorant hateful idiots are practising the opposite of what Jezus tells us to do. Very sad indeed.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The problem I have with many of the views on evolution and the fossil
record is that it is based upon the assumption that life started from
non-life, ....... Kelly

This is in line with what the Bible tells us.

Genesis chapter 2

7

2 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P4.HTM#$6

***************************************************

2 [7] God is portrayed as a potter molding man's body out of clay. There is a play on words in Hebrew between adam ("man" ) and adama ("ground" ). Being: literally, "soul."

***************************************************

How about that ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
This is in line with what the Bible tells us.

Genesis chapter 2

7

2 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P4.HTM#$6

***************************************************

2 [7] God is portrayed as a potter ...[text shortened]... rally, "soul."

***************************************************

How about that ?

I agree with that, it is what I personally believe happened.
I also believe the other creatures were created according to the
Genesis story too, and after that they started going through all the
changes life goes through in this universe.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The problem I have with many of the views on evolution and the fossil
record is that it is based upon the assumption that life started from
non-life, and changed over time from a simple life form into the
diverse complexity we see today! This all goes back to what you think
the starting point was like; it becomes our plum line for truth
everything is f ...[text shortened]... colors
all things after that with respect to how you view everything we call
evidence.
Kelly

The problem is that you can believe the world was created 5 minutes ago and god just created us with the memories we already have. That does explain everything - the problem is, there isn't any real evidence of it.

There IS evidence of the big bang - there is physical evidence of the universe expanding and it's logical to think that it has been.

There is plenty of physical evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old and very little, if any, that it is only 6000 years old - but of course you can believe what you want.

The explanation of "god just did it that way" is a cop out since it doesn't actually try and find evidence of a real way of things happening. If we just shrugged our shoulders and said "god did it, wow isn't that amazing" then science wouldn't progress and we'd be content in just having that faith that god just did stuff. You would have to give equal credence to the claim that the flying spaghetti monster created it as you would that Jesus did since it's essentially the exact same claim.

It's much more rational to investigate the natural world based on the evidence the natural world provides rather than claim some invisible being just snapped their fingers.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
The problem is that you can believe the world was created 5 minutes ago and god just created us with the memories we already have. That does explain everything - the problem is, there isn't any real evidence of it.

There IS evidence of the big bang - there is physical evidence of the universe expanding and it's logical to think that it has been.

Th ...[text shortened]... al world provides rather than claim some invisible being just snapped their fingers.

There is evidence for the Big Bang, really?
Describe for me the Big Bang, tell me about what was going on before,
during, and after and let me judge how your story lines up with what
we see today. I'll do the same with creation ,or you can read it for
yourself if you'd like. The difference between your story and mine is
that your has to change over and over depending on what everyone
thinks is true today instead of what they were sure was true yesterday.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is evidence for the Big Bang, really?
Describe for me the Big Bang, tell me about what was going on before,
during, and after and let me judge how your story lines up with what
we see today. I'll do the same with creation ,or you can read it for
yourself if you'd like. The difference between your story and mine is
that your has to change over and ...[text shortened]... what everyone
thinks is true today instead of what they were sure was true yesterday.
Kelly

There is evidence for the Big Bang, really?

Yes. Where have you been? Oh yeah, reading the bible 😛

Describe for me the Big Bang, tell me about what was going on before,
during, and after and let me judge how your story lines up with what
we see today.

What an idiotic question. No one knows what specifically was going on before - because we have no specific evidence of that. If we can gain evidence of it then scientists who know far more than I do will try to find rational explanations for the evidence.

We have evidence that the universe is expanding - look it up. That specifically implies that this is a trend - one we have no physical evidence that it was static at some point. If we find evidence that it was static at some point then that would be a fantastic thing. Until then, we go by the evidence we have.

I'll do the same with creation ,or you can read it for
yourself if you'd like.

Give me physical, concrete evidence that is NOT the bible.

The difference between your story and mine is
that your has to change over and over depending on what everyone
thinks is true today instead of what they were sure was true yesterday.

Yes, and that's why my story is better. Because it EVOLVES into something more accurate as new evidence is found. It doesn't stay static in a book that was written 2000 years ago!

The fact that science changes its view on the world is a good thing since it actually grows to fit the evidence more and more instead of filling in blanks with "God did it".

Then again, maybe you're right. We should have stayed believing the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it. Change is baaaaad.

Things in science are always provisionally true. The best theory that matches the evidence. Yes, tomorrow's theory hopefully will be better than yesterday's. That's called progress.