Originally posted by no1marauderSecular 'moral codes' are subjective and open to change. It would be pointless for me to defend God's righteousness against every conceivable moral code. You are reiterating my point, that you cannot argue that God is unjust within the context of scripture without misrepresenting the scriptural data; you must resort to subjectivism.
Who's setting up a straw-man now? The argument is certainly not about whether "within the context of the Bible you cannot disprove the righteousness of God" but whether the God described in the OT is a monster as judged by any reasoned moral code that doesn't include as a presupposition that God is always righteous.
Originally posted by Jorge BorgesYour "point" is irrelevant to the discussion. If all you have is "God is righteous because the Bible says so" then you aren't going to convince anyone who doesn't share your belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. That claim is trivial and question begging.
Secular 'moral codes' are subjective and open to change. It would be pointless for me to defend God's righteousness against every conceivable moral code. You are reiterating my point, that you cannot argue that God is unjust within the context of scripture without misrepresenting the scriptural data; you must resort to subjectivism.
I won't bother to go into the false claim made over and over and over again by theists that all moral codes except Command Ones are malleable; there's been dozens of threads and thousands of posts used to show this argument is utterly fallacious.
Originally posted by no1marauderYour "point" is irrelevant to the discussion. If all you have is "God is righteous because the Bible says so" then you aren't going to convince anyone who doesn't share your belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. That claim is trivial and question begging.
Your "point" is irrelevant to the discussion. If all you have is "God is righteous because the Bible says so" then you aren't going to convince anyone who doesn't share your belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. That claim is trivial and question begging.
I won't bother to go into the false claim made over and over and over again by theists ...[text shortened]... zens of threads and thousands of posts used to show this argument is utterly fallacious.
But it was this point which led to the creating of this thread. I had said that Christians calling atheism a religion is tantamount to an atheist calling the God of the Bible an evil tyrant. In both cases it is a misrepresentation of what the other believes in. Neither stances are conducive to a fruitful discussion.
An atheist need not agree with the Bible in order to have an accurate conception of how everything in the Bible fits together, i.e., the various contexts.
As I read some of these arguments I am so glad that I read the entire Bible very carefully.
I am glad that I came across a book called Jonah which seems dedicated to communicating to us God's reluctance to judge a nation. Not one chapter or two is used to convey this idea. But one whole book of the Bible is used to convey God's reluctance to have to judge a nation.
I am glad that I noticed how God told Abraham that He would not judge the Amorites for another 400 years because they had not gotten that bad yet (Genesis 15:16). They were bad. But for them to merit the harsh judgement of the conquest of Canaan, He had to let them ripen for such with another four centries of them pursuing their evil culture.
Judgement was a mercy to those being sacrificed and otherwise abused by the Canaanites.
Then after the 400 years He adds another 40 years for them to witnes the "the army of Jehovah" wandering in the desert before entry into Canaan. They got an extension of 40 years. They knew what was coming. They had another 40 years to disperse or repent or cease their wickedness.
Then I read about God's judging of His own nation Israel. I don't know how many hundreds of passages their must be to show God's impartiality.
Then in the minor prophets I read about God being angry with the nations which went too far in thier warring with other nations. God said they were in excess. They executed more fury then He had intended.
He is mad that they riped open the women and hamstrung the horses.
I am just glad that reading the whole Bible I didn't just get a skewed
picture of God.
The Hebrew kings actually had a reputation of being "merciful kings":
"And his servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. We beg you, let us put sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)
What a benefit it has been to read the whole Bible carefully for myself many times rather than just read through some skeptics selective presentation of biased observations.
Originally posted by Jorge BorgesWhat you previously said is:
[b]Your "point" is irrelevant to the discussion. If all you have is "God is righteous because the Bible says so" then you aren't going to convince anyone who doesn't share your belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. That claim is trivial and question begging.
But it was this point which led to the creating of this thread. I had said that Christia ...[text shortened]... urate conception of how everything in the Bible fits together, i.e., the various contexts.[/b]
Every argument for God being a mean, torturous tyrant is fundamentally flawed. Certainly such arguments can be and are made, but they are still fundamentally flawed. In order to correct the atheist, Christians have to attempt correcting the basic underlying presuppositions which lead to his false conclusions
If all you meant to say is "God isn't a mean, tortuous tyrant because the Bible says he's righteous" than you certainly haven't shown that an argument to the contrary is "fundamentally flawed". It is YOU who have the presupposition, not the atheist (or others who believe that a literal reading of the OT makes God a monster). Others are simply judging God's action by using the moral codes that they judge anyone's actions on taking all the circumstances surrounding that action into account. You've jumped around sometimes asserting that circumstances justified God ordering the mass murder of children but ultimately have fallen back on "God is righteous 'cuz the Bible says so". That is, unsurprisingly, unconvincing in the extreme.
Originally posted by jaywillWhat a crock. The Bible is filled with massacres including of children, supposedly ordered by your "merciful" God. Read the Bible has "carefully" as you want, but if you tell me you'd stick a spear through a baby's head or worship a God who told you to do such a heinous crime, I still maintain you and your God are monsters.
As I read some of these arguments I am so glad that I read the [b]entire Bible very carefully.
I am glad that I came across a book called Jonah which seems dedicated to communicating to us God's reluctance to judge a nation. Not one chapter or two is used to convey this idea. But one whole book of the Bible is used to convey God's reluctance to ha ...[text shortened]... than just read through some skeptics selective presentation of biased observations.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillIn other words, if your debate opponent is forcing you to focus on a difficult passage of scripture, talk about something else, fast!
As I read some of these arguments I am so glad that I read the [b]entire Bible very carefully.
I am glad that I came across a book called Jonah which seems dedicated to communicating to us God's reluctance to judge a nation. Not one chapter or two is used to convey this idea. But one whole book of the Bible is used to convey God's reluctance to ha than just read through some skeptics selective presentation of biased observations.[/b]
I say that you cannot ignore God's unjust acts just because he was kind and merciful to others. It's like saying that Jeffery Dahmer is a good person, except for those people he killed and ate.
Originally posted by Jorge BorgesEvidently, your 'god's' moral code is subject to change at its will. If your
Secular 'moral codes' are subjective and open to change. It would be pointless for me to defend God's righteousness against every conceivable moral code. You are reiterating my point, that you cannot argue that God is unjust within the context of scripture without misrepresenting the scriptural data; you must resort to subjectivism.
'god' commands the slaughter of infants, then it is just. Period.
In fact, such a command is contraminded to one of the Commandments
given to Israel -- Thou shalt not murder. Of course, you will say 'If 'god'
commands it, it's not murder,' which only serves to illustrate the very
subjectivity in the 'sacred' moral code: the definition of murder changes
based on whether 'god' considers it murder or not.
Nemesio
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In other words, if your debate opponent is forcing you to focus on a difficult passage of scripture, talk about something else, fast!
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Quite the contrary. I welcome difficult passages.
I am GLAD that there are difficult passages.
If everything in the Bible was according to MY taste and agreeable with MY opinion, I would not trust it.
I am saying I am glad that I read the entire revelation.
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In my church days, I observed that it was very common for believers to skip over the parts of the bible that made them uncomfortable, and ignore the commands that were too inconvenient to follow.
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Your concept of "following commands" may have been ignorant of the nature of walking in the Spirit and living under grace.
Perhaps you were ignorant of the nature of the New Testament exhortation to abide in Christ the living Person and allow Him to abide in you.
Perhaps all you were ever taught was "Now all you people go home and be good people."
Originally posted by jaywillQuite the contrary. I welcome difficult passages.
[b]======================
In other words, if your debate opponent is forcing you to focus on a difficult passage of scripture, talk about something else, fast!
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Quite the contrary. I welcome difficult passages.
I am GLAD that there are difficult passages.
If everything in the Bible was according to MY taste ...[text shortened]... .
Perhaps all you were ever taught was "Now all you people go home and be good people."[/b]
Well, there have been a few given in the thread. Perhaps you could stop patting yourself on the back for a minute and actually weigh in on the issues at hand.
Your concept of "following commands" may have been ignorant of the nature of walking in the Spirit and living under grace.
After all this time, you still sound like a Pharisee. "God, I thank you that I am enlightened, and not like those ignorant atheists on the forums."
Originally posted by Jorge Borgeslol. Do you even read what you write, in and between not making chess moves? How about this: "There is no doubt that the Abrahamic God is completely fictitious".
There is no doubt that the infants who perished at the hands of the Israelites are alive in heaven right now, whereas their parents are not.
- "There is no doubt that Jesus Never Existed"
- "There is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is The Whore of Babylon"
- "There is no doubt that Christian dogma is harmful to children"
- "There is no doubt that Mohammed is the one and true Prophet of Allah"
- "There is no doubt that Joseph Smith is a Latter Day Saint and true Prophet of God"
- "There is no doubt that bad thetans are responsible for the degraded human condition, and that they can be cleansed for a moderate fee"
Say, this is fun! Do you have any more "There is no doubts", Jorge?
Originally posted by SwissGambitI do thank God that I don't have your attitude, by His mercy.
[b]Quite the contrary. I welcome difficult passages.
Well, there have been a few given in the thread. Perhaps you could stop patting yourself on the back for a minute and actually weigh in on the issues at hand.
Your concept of "following commands" may have been ignorant of the nature of walking in the Spirit and living under grace.
A God, I thank you that I am enlightened, and not like those ignorant atheists on the forums."[/b]
How that sounds to you ? Ask me how much I care.