Spirituality
22 Feb 08
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayMy years of studying science is where my information comes from, and on this I base my Ideas about the universe. For those who push alternatives to evolution being thought in science classes I want to hear these "scientific theories". If they have no grounding in science then they should be thought in religious education classes so that young people who haven't formed their own Ideas yet are clear on where all the information is coming from.
I don't have a problem with how you grasp reality either as long as
its clear where your beliefs come from too, you have a point?
Kelly
Once again the question gets evaded....
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25 Feb 08
Originally posted by MexicoI don't believe that you'll find any... but I hope your search is fruitful.
Ah you see you've already made up your mind. And these are exactly the type of comments I'm trying to avoid. I want to hear the the scientific arguments from someone who can articulate them in an intelligent way. And then see if they have any validity or basis in science.....
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayRead his post carefully. He is not asking you for an explanation for the universe or anything like that. He is asking you to either:
The answer has to be based in science, and why is that? You believe
that is the only method we can grasp reality?
Kelly
1. Provide an alternative scientific explanation to evolution
or
2. Admit that you don't have one, and that therefore whatever beliefs you have must necessarily contradict good science. Note that he is not saying your beliefs are therefore wrong or that you don't grasp reality, merely that they are unscientific.
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadThank you, nobody seems to want to give an answer though, everybody wants to play games with the semantics of my posts or answer my question with a question.... I find it rather frustrating...
Read his post carefully. He is not asking you for an explanation for the universe or anything like that. He is asking you to either:
1. Provide an alternative scientific explanation to evolution
or
2. Admit that you don't have one, and that therefore whatever beliefs you have must necessarily contradict good science. Note that he is not saying your beliefs are therefore wrong or that you don't grasp reality, merely that they are unscientific.
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by MexicoMost people have a lot of respect for science, and realize that everybody else does too. For someone to admit that they believe something that is not only unscientific but also has a large body of scientific evidence against it, is very difficult as it not only invites ridicule from others but is difficult to reconcile for themselves.
Thank you, nobody seems to want to give an answer though, everybody wants to play games with the semantics of my posts or answer my question with a question.... I find it rather frustrating...
For this reason, many people faced with the above situation will try to justify it in some way, including:
1. Denying that there is a conflict.
2. Denying the validity of the science in question - this often includes whole branches of scientific study.
3. Trying to show that their beliefs have scientific support - this may include:
a: hanging on to information obtained from other people with similar beliefs, without much scrutiny.
b: hanging on to ideas which are not particularly logical or supportable, but appear to support the position (eg nonsense about complexity, thermodynamics etc).
c: lying or inventing.
Many will not admit that their beliefs conflict with science in general, but some will when pushed. I haven't met any who will admit the full extent of the conflict ie admit that if their beliefs are correct then most science is wrong and their computer should by rights not work at all.
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou see this is my point, I have no problem with what people believe, I really don't, as long as I'm free and uninfluenced in making my own decisions on the nature of reality.
Most people have a lot of respect for science, and realize that everybody else does too. For someone to admit that they believe something that is not only unscientific but also has a large body of scientific evidence against it, is very difficult as it not only invites ridicule from others but is difficult to reconcile for themselves.
For this reason, ma ...[text shortened]... efs are correct then most science is wrong and their computer should by rights not work at all.
There are several things that annoy me though....
People debasing good scientific theories with half truths, nonsense and arm waving. Particularly when they actually don't know what their talking about most of the time
People answering questions with semantic games or another question.
People refusing to admit that the point you make is at least valid, even if they don't agree with it.
People blindly quoting religious scripture at me. I don't quote scientific papers on here, I give my own thoughts and opinions.
And finally people not actually wanting to discuss anything and simply posting their two cents and then pulling out when someone responds intelligently.....
Thats why I started this thread, to see if there was actually a scientific basis for the argument or if it was all based in faith.
Because with the amount of crap on the internet you'd swear creation and evolution were on equal terms in the scientific community.
However all I've come across so far are people doing all the things outlined above.
So if any of you have a theory or Idea feel free to post it and we can discuss, which is all I wanted in the first place.....
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by MexicoListen you are defending something you have not even defined yet!
My years of studying science is where my information comes from, and on this I base my Ideas about the universe. For those who push alternatives to evolution being thought in science classes I want to hear these "scientific theories". If they have no grounding in science then they should be thought in religious education classes so that young people who haven ...[text shortened]... clear on where all the information is coming from.
Once again the question gets evaded....
I believe in evolution, but not the same way others do, so big deal!
You want to box knowledge and truth into this nice little package that
only has acceptable 'theories' within it, fine by me, but that does not
mean you are getting it right, it only means your models are workable.
You cannot accept things beyond the scope of human abilities to
prove or measure, the spiritual does not fit so if it played a part in
the reality of it all, science wouldn't accept it, or find room for it, due to
the blinders it has concerning such things.
Kelly
25 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayYou're doing it again, evading the question and attacking something that is slightly off point.......
Listen you are defending something you have not even defined yet!
I believe in evolution, but not the same way others do, so big deal!
You want to box knowledge and truth into this nice little package that
only has acceptable 'theories' within it, fine by me, but that does not
mean you are getting it right, it only means your models are workable.
You c ...[text shortened]... 't accept it, or find room for it, due to
the blinders it has concerning such things.
Kelly
I didn't start this thread to defend evolution, that has been done over and over again.... I started the thread to ask you for your Viable alternatives, within the scope of the scientific realm. I don't care about your spiritual beliefs, they don't matter a damn to me to be honest. I want to know if you all have a viable alternative or if your simply attacking evolution because it puts your specific belief structure under pressure.
Furthermore where I was going with this post was toward the science classroom. Unfortunately the debate still hasn't progressed far enough to make my point.....
So I ask again, whats the alternative? If you have an, Idea, or theory on the question asked please post it so we can discuss it as equals.
If not p**s off out of the thread and go post somewhere else....
25 Feb 08
It's very rich for someone with strong faith to say science has blinders to the truth.
History has shown over and over that religious organizations wear blinders towards science until the truth becomes impossible to deny.....
And I'm actually quite open to the Idea of religion... One of my best friends has recently "seen the light". And to be honest its improved his quality of life. We often sit and talk (usually over copious amounts of red wine and grass ) about our differences in viewing reality.....
25 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by MexicoI'm not sure what you want, I'm not asking you to defend your views
You're doing it again, evading the question and attacking something that is slightly off point.......
I didn't start this thread to defend evolution, that has been done over and over again.... I started the thread to ask you for your Viable alternatives, within the scope of the scientific realm. I don't care about your spiritual beliefs, they don't matter ...[text shortened]... lassroom. Unfortunately the debate still hasn't progressed far enough to make my point.....
on evolution, I'm asking you to tell me what you think it is! We can
worry about defending it once we know what we are talking about.
Until that time nothing can be said for or against it, because no one
really knows what is it is you mean by the word evolution, or maybe
better said, I do not know what you mean by it. How can I or anyone
give you a viable alternative when we don't know what we are
comparing it to?
Kelly
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayI think it is quite clear from his posts that he is referring to The Theory of Evolution as initially proposed by Darwin and later fleshed out and currently held by the scientific community.
I'm not sure what you want, I'm not asking you to defend your views
on evolution, I'm asking you to tell me what you think it is! We can
worry about defending it once we know what we are talking about.
Until that time nothing can be said for or against it, because no one
really knows what is it is [b]you mean by the word evolution, or maybe
better ...[text shortened]... nyone
give you a viable alternative when we don't know what we are
comparing it to?
Kelly[/b]
Mexico, please keep in mind that the word 'evolution' refers to a process, and that anyone with any intelligence and who knows what it means, cannot deny that it takes place. But I believe you are referring to the Theory of Evolution which is something much bigger and is denied by many creationists. There are also people who believe that The Theory of Evolution is correct up to a certain point, but rather than random events driving the process they see the guiding hand of God. In fact almost all theists that accept evolution, would see Gods guiding hand in it somewhere.
25 Feb 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadUnless terms are defined before hand people can find they might be
I think it is quite clear from his posts that he is referring to The Theory of Evolution as initially proposed by Darwin and later fleshed out and currently held by the scientific community.
Mexico, please keep in mind that the word 'evolution' refers to a process, and that anyone with any intelligence and who knows what it means, cannot deny that it ...[text shortened]... In fact almost all theists that accept evolution, would see Gods guiding hand in it somewhere.
using the same words to describe two different things, even if they
are refering to the same book it is possible their takes on it are not
the same. I'd like it if he tells me what he means by it, it makes its
easier that way.
Kelly
25 Feb 08
O.k. as I said before I'm not here to defend evolutionary theory in anyway, but if you want a definition of what I mean by it:
Evolution is the process of life changing, over periods of time which vary dependent on the life form in question, due to environmental factors, and a bunch of other circumstances which I'm not going to get into because I'm trying to keep this simple. This applies to everything from microscopic bacteria all the way through to the largest trees..... There is a weight of evidence to support it, and to be honest as far as I can see little or no valid research to refute it as a whole. There is some controversy over the various mechanisms driving it, and the implications of it.
Now as stated earlier, many people here refute evolution. So simply put I wanted your alternative. There are a few as far as I can gather, but theres been some debate around wondering if it should be thought in science classes. If something is to be thought in science classes then it should be accepted by a scientific authority, which in this case is the scientific community..... Just as something thought in a religious class should be accepted by religious authority.
I don't mind people believing god caused evolution. Or that his hand guides it or anything else for that matter. What I do mind is people poking at hundreds of years of good research without any alternatives. Scientist do it to each others work. Poking holes without an alternative, and that bugs me too.....