25 Jun '07 04:20>
Originally posted by amannionLOL
Evolution. Where else?
I believe some people raise evolution to a religion and I'd like that
avoided too. 🙂
Kelly
Originally posted by scottishinnzWe agree, imagine that! 🙂
Actually, it's the agnostic position which is untennable.
If you believe in God, you're a theist.
If you don't, you're an atheist.
There is no middle ground, no one "kinda" believes in God. They either do, or they don't.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNo, all four are tenable in terms of something which is knowable in a factual manner. However, that's not what we're talking about, we're actually discussing an opinion. And a person may say "we can never know", but they actually either hold sway on either "I believe" or "I don't believe".
So you only see the first two as valid positions:
X is true
X is not true
X is unknown
X is unknowable
That's an interesting perspective you have there.
Originally posted by vistesdSo what is the difference between how a weak atheist and a weak
If agnosticism is defined in terms of “Pyrrhonic” skepticism (ala Sextus Empiricus), it would be an intellectually valid position when arguments for and against are seen as equipollent, making it reasonable to suspend judgment. “I don’t know” is an intellectually honest answer.
Different folks will, of course, under any given definition of G, argue about ...[text shortened]... ian” agnostic would likely conduct their lives in the same way as a weak atheist—i.e., as if ~G.
Originally posted by KellyJayI never heard the phrase “weak theist.” I am imagining that that would be someone who chooses to believe in a god simply because there is no sufficient evidence for there being no god (small “g” for generality)? That would seem to mean—contra rwingett—that people are born as implicit theists?
So what is the difference between how a weak atheist and a weak
theist if you can have one or the other in terms of how they act?
Kelly
Originally posted by scottishinnzNice try. So you're saying that "I don't know" is not a valid position for anything that is not knowable in a factual manner? You might want to rethink this.
No, all four are tenable in terms of something which is knowable in a factual manner. However, that's not what we're talking about, we're actually discussing an opinion. And a person may say "we can never know", but they actually either hold sway on either "I believe" or "I don't believe".
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhy only "nice try"?
Nice try.
Originally posted by scottishinnzMostly because I was at a loss for words 🙂 If anything is untenable, it's your position on this.
Why only "nice try"?
The theist no more "knows" that God exists than the atheist "knows" he doesn't. It's belief, not factual knowledge. I know my kitchen sink exists. I don't need to believe in it. I can go up and look at it and touch it, I can feel the cold metal.
No-one can do that with God. He's undetectable.
All we are left with is belief. Belief cannot be "don't know", you either believe, or you don't.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneUnKNOWable, yes.
Mostly because I was at a loss for words 🙂 If anything is untenable, it's your position on this.
Sorry, but it's my belief that this is unknowable.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneG or ~G. If one honestly says the answer is unknowable, one is still going to live as if either G or ~G.
Nice try. So you're saying that "I don't know" is not a valid position for anything that is not knowable in a factual manner? You might want to rethink this.
Originally posted by scottishinnzYou're right. It is different than yours. It's like the following.
UnKNOWable, yes.
Unbelieveable? I'd say "yes" to that too. I suspect your position would be different to mine.
Originally posted by scottishinnzI don't believe that that's true either. People believe what they believe.
By that definition, everyone is an agnostic, there are no other positions.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNow you are coming back to belief again!
I don't believe that that's true either. People believe what they believe.
Some believe that God exists.
Some believe that God doesn't exist.
Some don't know if God exists.
Some believe that the existence of God is unknowable.
Go figure.