atheism is a belief system

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]This will reject all reasons to change their thinking, and has set them up to always assume some Godless or gods less reason has to be there.

This is the part that is just inaccurate (while it may describe a subset of atheists). It assumes (as a generality—which is what I am objecting to) that no atheist will ever become a theist. Does it also a ...[text shortened]... the case.

The “no True atheist™” argument is no more valid than “no True theist™” arguments.[/b]

As long as anyone remains with the mindset there is always going to be
some reason for all things around them to have only a Godless or god less
reason, they are in a place that is the way it is. You want to split hairs when
the common thread among those that reject or ignore God or gods is that
they are without God or gods, so when push comes to shove they have
to, they have no choice but to come up with a reason that will be without God
or gods.

If they change their minds and include God or gods, are they now still a
part of the Atheism discussion or are they now Theist?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
As long as anyone remains with the mindset there is always going to be
some reason for all things around them to have only a Godless or god less
reason, they are in a place that is the way it is. You want to split hairs when
the common thread among those that reject or ignore God or gods is that
they are without God or gods, so when push comes to shove ...[text shortened]... God or gods, are they now still a
part of the Atheism discussion or are they now Theist?
Kelly

I’m not splitting hairs—just being accurate. Someone who, for whatever reason, does not believe in gods will, of course, look elsewhere for explanatory variables. This does not imply that they search for other explanatory variables in order to reinforce, or protect, their atheism (of whatever version), nor that they will necessarily refuse to entertain theistic possibilities if coherent evidence is presented.

You know, Kelly, we should probably just drop this insistence that there must be some generalized “they”—theist or atheist—and refrain from gross generalizations about “them”.

EDIT: On the flip side, a theist who sees no need to search for explanatory variables other than god, is not necessarily doing so in order to reinforce (or protect) their theistic belief.

Originally posted by vistesd
I’m not splitting hairs—just being accurate. Someone who, for whatever reason, does not believe in gods will, of course, look elsewhere for explanatory variables. This does not imply that they search for other explanatory variables in order to reinforce, or protect, their atheism (of whatever version), nor that they will necessarily refuse to entert ...[text shortened]... od, is not necessarily doing so in order to reinforce (or protect) their theistic belief.

"This does not imply that they search for other explanatory variables in order to reinforce, or protect, their atheism (of whatever version), nor that they will necessarily refuse to entertain theistic possibilities if coherent evidence is presented. "

I agree, and it does not matter! I don't care why or how they got there,
it is only important that they are where they are. Am I splitting hairs saying
they will only look for a "natural" cause in all things? I am saying they will
do that, and only that, it is all they have to work with. It does not matter if
they are doing it due to protecting anything, it is just what they do, they
have no other choice unless they leave Atheism. To reject God and gods
leaves out the supernatural, so only the natural world and what is in it,
are the only toys in their toy box.

"...if coherent evidence is presented" Really, God is real due to some type
of evidence, exactly how many times have you read here, there isn't any
evidence for God? I could more than likely do a word search and find that
statement thousands upon thousands of times just here. You know if you
are honest that as quick as someone says this is evidence another will jump
up and say no and give another reason for it outside of God, or as soon as
you say this is evidence for God another will jump up and say that we just
use God to fill in the blanks! Be honest for crying out loud! If you reject
God or gods you are not going to even leave the door open to have to
accept them, as soon as you do, your WHOLE world view must be forced
to change.

Gross generalization, you think saying Atheism does not allow for God or
gods is a gross generalization? I beg to differ, it is how the word is defined
unless you want to say Atheist accept God and gods.
Kelly

Originally posted by vistesd
I’m not splitting hairs—just being accurate. Someone who, for whatever reason, does not believe in gods will, of course, look elsewhere for explanatory variables. This does not imply that they search for other explanatory variables in order to reinforce, or protect, their atheism (of whatever version), nor that they will necessarily refuse to entert ...[text shortened]... od, is not necessarily doing so in order to reinforce (or protect) their theistic belief.

"EDIT: On the flip side, a theist who sees no need to search for explanatory variables other than god, is not necessarily doing so in order to "

I agree once you settle that God is real, than God is real. I do not agree
that we stop looking for explanatory variables, we do still live in a natural
world, and with that comes all the bells and whistles that goes along with
it. Cause and effect are as real for the Theist as the are for the Atheist.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rank outsider
And one such atheist is a person who hasn't even bothered to consider the evidence either way and doesn't care what the answer is. He has neither belief in a god, nor belief that a god does not exist.

I can't really see what the problem is.

I know you don't see the problem. The problem is that the atheist says he does not believe in the existence of God because he can not prove God exists and therefore, God does not exist because he can't prove God exists. Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

The Instructor

ZacharyOriginally posted by KellyJay
So we are in agreement, they do not look for God or gods in anything, and
they do it by your admission due to not being interested or consider it
relevant to their lives. Not sure why you think that is somehow different
than anything I said, I was simply stating that was all they do, they look for
any way to make things work without God or gods. ...[text shortened]... mply any explanation what so ever no matter the odds they
can use to fill in the blanks.
Kelly

They do not look for any way to make things work without god.

They are not looking for explanations.

They will not, however, accept any explanation.

They would happily accept an explanation that involves a god. But they won't accept this just on your say so.

So for you to say we agree is truly laughable.

Originally posted by vistesd
Part of the argument that has run through this thread is that it is an error to use the word “they” with regard to atheists, as if they were all the same. I would say that the same error is there with the assumption that all theists are somehow the same.

Theists are all the same in the narrow fact that they believe in a god, belief being the topic of this debate.

Likewise, atheists are all the same in the sense they have no belief in gods.

Atheists are not all the same in the sense that they all believe that gods don't exist.

Trying to equate one with another is often a fairly blatant and transparent attempt to try an impose a burden of proof on people who are not making any claims that require one.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Atheism is the topic, it is without God for one reason or another, but it is
without God. Atheist I would assume simply by default carry at least one
of the many reasons they are without God or gods, I don't care and it does
not matter if it is due to a rejection of God or gods, that they ignore and
find useless God or gods, or any other reason they can ...[text shortened]... ee on details, but since they include
God they will not reject out of hand God or gods.
Kelly

Well, if repeating the same untruths makes you feel better, please carry on.

This is why people describe (some) theists as closed-minded. How arrogant of you to suppose you know the mind of every person who happens not to believe in god. When you accept that this lack of belief can arise in so many different ways.

What you say is clearly untrue, and yet you won't even entertain the possibility that your view is an extreme one, let alone patently wrong.

That is a pretty good example of what being closed-minded is.

For your information, I know plenty of atheists who would probably prefer it if there were a god. They are very open to being convinced that there is one. But they have seen no evidence that there is one, and can't see why it makes any difference to their everyday lives if there is one.

Deny this if you will, but it won't change the fact that they exist and that they are atheists.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I know you don't see the problem. The problem is that the atheist says he does not believe in the existence of God because he can not prove God exists and therefore, God does not exist because he can't prove God exists. Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

The Instructor

No atheist I know has ever said god does not exist because he/she cannot prove god exists.

And many atheists I know do not claim that god does not exist.

And the claim you made is not a circular argument.

So your post is considered to be refuted in its entirety.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
They do not look for any way to make things work without god.

They are not looking for explanations.

They will not, however, accept any explanation.

They would happily accept an explanation that involves a god. But they won't accept this just on your say so.

So for you to say we agree is truly laughable.

I did not say they are looking for ways to make things work without God!
I said that was all they could do, it isn't a matter of effort, once you reject
God and gods than what you have left are views that do not have God or
gods. If you are left with only those without God or gods, than no matter
the odds you have to believe something over came the odds, you've nothing
left.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I did not say they are looking for ways to make things work without God!
I said that was all they could do, it isn't a matter of effort, once you reject
God and gods than what you have left are views that do not have God or
gods. If you are left with only those without God or gods, than no matter
the odds you have to believe something over came the odds, you've nothing
left.
Kelly

I was simply stating that was all they do, they look for
any way to make things work without God or gods

KJ - 12 August 23.18

I did not say they are looking for ways to make things work without God!

KJ - 13 August 12.36

See why we struggle with what you say?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
No atheist I know has ever said god does not exist because he/she cannot prove god exists.

And many atheists I know do not claim that god does not exist.

And the claim you made is not a circular argument.

So your post is considered to be refuted in its entirety.

Perhaps you have just not talked to enough professing atheists about the subject for them to tell you.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Perhaps you have just not talked to enough professing atheists about the subject for them to tell you.

The Instructor

There are plenty of professing atheists on here who have been telling you. Have you not been paying attention? Or do you just discount anything that a professing atheist says about what they do or do not believe?

Originally posted by Rank outsider

I was simply stating that was all they do, [b]they look for
any way to make things work without God or gods

KJ - 12 August 23.18

I did not say they are looking for ways to make things work without God!

KJ - 13 August 12.36

See why we struggle with what you say?[/b]

Context: I'm not suggesting that they sit in a room and say how can we
make this happen without God or gods. I'm saying that is all they can do
is look for reasons for things and none of their explanations will have God
or gods in them, thus they bring in built in blinders.
Kelly

Originally posted by vistesd
There are plenty of professing atheists on here who have been telling you. Have you not been paying attention? Or do you just discount anything that a professing atheist says about what they do or do not believe?

They used to say God does not exist. I hope I have been helpful in making them doubt that.

The Instructor