Are Catholics serious ?

Originally posted by buckky
It sure sounds like those
outside the church will burn. I would love to believe that the Catholic church has the liberal view you mention, but all my experience with them has been different . When you get right down to it, and ask them some of the troubleing questions, they all admit that there is one way or the "hellway". Without the church you stand next to no chance of a decent afterlife.

Don't listen to him. When they're talking in public the Catholics all smile and say that nobody burns in hell. But when nobody else is around they give each other a wink and a nod and quietly wait in anticipation of the day when all the people they have to pretend to be nice to will burn in the lake of fire.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I looked through the document Lumen Gentium. I cant see anywhere that explicitly says that.

Do you mind quoting the section you are referring to ?

I remember a "baptism by desire" concept and its partner -- something along the lines of if a person would have chosen to be baptized had they been taught "the truth" that counts toward their "get out of Hell free" card.

Originally posted by rwingett
Don't listen to him. When they're talking in public the Catholics all smile and say that nobody burns in hell. But when nobody else is around they give each other a wink and a nod and quietly wait in anticipation of the day when all the people they have to pretend to be nice to will burn in the lake of fire.

Are you serious? You must not know many Catholics.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I looked through the document Lumen Gentium. I cant see anywhere that explicitly says that.

Do you mind quoting the section you are referring to ?

I already have quoted. All of paragraphs 15 and 16.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I already have quoted. All of paragraphs 15 and 16.

Ok, i see it. The passage seems to imply that they have to be converted before they can be saved, so we are back to square one and the issue remains. Is it true that Catholics believe the rest of the world will burn in hell ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok, i see it. The passage seems to imply that they have to be converted before they can be saved, so we are back to square one and the issue remains. Is it true that Catholics believe the rest of the world will burn in hell ?

Then I must seriously doubt your reading skills. Neither paragraph mentions conversion. Re-read:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

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Originally posted by Conrau K
Then I must seriously doubt your reading skills. Neither paragraph mentions conversion. Re-read:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscienc ...[text shortened]... arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

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If neither paragraph mentions conversion then what is this last sentence in para 16 about :

Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Seems to me that the passage is in fact saying that these 'heathens' can be saved if and only if they are converted.

And para 17 continues to explain in detail the importance of understanding the Gospel to salvation. Clearly there is no salvation for those who do not know Christ. And if there is no salvation then there is no life after death.

I dont know why you are defending the Catholic stance here.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Are you serious? You must not know many Catholics.

I wish I knew fewer.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If neither paragraph mentions conversion then what is this last sentence in para 16 about :

Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Seems to me that the passage is i ...[text shortened]... there is no life after death.

I dont know why you are defending the Catholic stance here.

Maybe bolding will help you get over your reading comprehension problem:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

After reading this, how can you possibly say "Clearly there is no salvation for those who do not know Christ."? The passage says exactly the opposite.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Maybe bolding will help you get over your reading comprehension problem:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own [b]do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19 ...[text shortened]... ere is no salvation for those who do not know Christ."? The passage says exactly the opposite.[/b]

Like I already suggested reading a little further helps to explain what the Catholic document is saying. In the very next paragraph, 17 it says ...that God's plan may be fully realized, whereby He has constituted Christ as the source of salvation for the whole world...
Salvation is through Christ. Thats the reason why its important for the Church to preach the gospel .. to Muslims, Atheists, etc. Because these people can get salvation but only through Christ and conversion to Christianity.

Thats my understanding of the document.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Like I already suggested reading a little further helps to explain what the Catholic document is saying. In the very next paragraph, 17 it says [b] ...that God's plan may be fully realized, whereby He has constituted Christ as the source of salvation for the whole world...
Salvation is through Christ. Thats the reason why its important for the Church to ...[text shortened]... only through Christ and conversion to Christianity.

Thats my understanding of the document.[/b]

That reading would negate the plain language of 16. Besides that already quoted, there's this:

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.


I would say that the interpretation that gives effect to both is that you can possibly get salvation without being a member of the Church, but it helps a lot if you are. Though unlike some of the "Christians" here, the RCC doesn't believe that anybody can know whether they are saved or not during this life.

Originally posted by no1marauder
That reading would negate the plain language of 16. Besides that already quoted, there's this:

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found a ...[text shortened]... RCC doesn't believe that anybody can know whether they are saved or not during this life.

I think this document is deliberately worded in such a fashion so as to make it unclear. Para 16 is not as clear as you claim. The Church cannot come out and state it plainly. Here is what I would have said :
Good and just and upright people all over the world, regardless of their religion will get salvation even though they dont know the gospel of Christ.. Thats plain language.

The documents is saying that there are people who have NOT YET arrived at a knowledge of God and who need help to learn the gospel of Christ so that they can get salvation. Hence the need for more preaching.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think this document is deliberately worded in such a fashion so as to make it unclear. Para 16 is not as clear as you claim. The Church cannot come out and state it plainly. Here is what I would have said :
[/i]Good and just and upright people all over the world, regardless of their religion will get salvation even though they dont know the gospel of Chr ...[text shortened]... to learn the gospel of Christ so that they can get salvation. Hence the need for more preaching.

Yes and if they were saying what you claim then they could have said "If you don't get the knowledge of the Gospel and of God's plan than you cannot gain salvation". So right back at ya.

I've already explained to you that to the RCC conversion, no matter how sincere, does not assure salvation. Nor does lifelong membership in the Church. Your assertions are without backing.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Yes and if they were saying what you claim then they could have said "If you don't get the knowledge of the Gospel and of God's plan than you cannot gain salvation". So right back at ya.

I've already explained to you that to the RCC conversion, no matter how sincere, does not assure salvation. Nor does lifelong membership in the Church. Your assertions are without backing.

And if your interpretation is correct there would no need to mention in the same sentence about the CC needing to preach the gospel.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And if your interpretation is correct there would no need to mention in the same sentence about the CC needing to preach the gospel.

My interpretation was that knowledge of the Gospel wasn't necessary or sufficient for salvation, but that it sure helps. Obviously, preaching the Gospel is still desirable from that point of view.